Bartertown.com

This issue is of great concern as I am involved in a dispute with a minor (or so he claims) who won one of my E-bay auctions, paid with no problem, left positve feedback and commisioned me to paint up some more models for him. He paid for the models by sending me a Pay pal payment to go buy them. Which I did. After agreeing to a price and getting the pictures he is now coming up with every reason to not pay. He is now claiming he is a minor (thus he cannot legally enter into a contract).

So I am in a pretty POed mood right now. This brings up the next issue. How can this site allow for minors to post trades and allow to trade when that trade is essentialy a contract and minors cannot enter into a contract.

That is a good question.

If he claims that he cannot legally enter into a contract because he is underage, then WTF is he doing on eBay or using Paypal? Both eBay and Paypal registration cleary specifies that a person must be 18 years or older to use their sites and the services they provide. He is either lying or using an account linked to some other adult. If the account is linked to someone else, then his use of that acount is grounds for account termination.

For your cuurent situation, I would advise to refund the initial Paypal payment and keep the models, which you can sell on eBay. The sale price should cover the refund and then some.

As far as Bartertown goes, opinions are going to vary regarding minors. I'm sure there are plenty here already part of the community trading responsibly. It would be a shame for them to be barred because of demographics.

I am also in the "don't have minors on the site" camp. I do a lot of CCG trading and playing at local game stores.. and yes.. I see a LOT of teens playing and trading. The seriously young kids, say, under 12... are on my "do not even try to trade with" list.. because *I* do not want to be accused of taking advantage of their inexperience and possibly poor judgement.

Similar experiences here. I will happily talk to a parent and have that parent negotiate a trade on their minor's behalf.. but, one time that I did trade with someone for Magic cards.. I got a scathing email to my personal account from a person claiming to be that traders Father.. accusing me of trying to rip off a kid. Since neither side had shipped yet, it was easy to call off the trade, explain my side, and had no fallout beyond that.

I just do not want to take risks like that.. this culture kinda automatically assumes that adults dealing with kids want to take advantage of them..

-Porkuslime

this is a very good subject to bring up.. and I do beleive we should have some sort of age requirement for the "contracts" and whatnot.. even though I was a minor when I joined.. I was only 16 or 17.. and I like to stick to my word. But anyway.. there is nothing to stop anyone from saying they are a minor on the site.. so the age thing should be manditory, so you have to be over 18..or something so that there is no problems!

I too had a bad experience with someone I traded with that was a minor. On the other hand I have traded with other "kids" that were great traders. Conversially I have traded with adults that were worse then any kids.

Maybe some sort of adult authorization should be required. A parents credit card number or something of that sort. Getting parents involved in some way would make it much less likely they are going to mess around with trades and contracts.

BTW I am not a lawyer but I suspect a minor that enters a contract knowing that they can't because of their age can get in some sort of contract.

Short of the site having something like verisign or some age verification tool, I don't see how we can enforce it.

Besides even that, I can't imagine how many traders this community will lose if we did something like that.

insidius wrote:Short of the site having something like verisign or some age verification tool, I don't see how we can enforce it.

Besides even that, I can't imagine how many traders this community will lose if we did something like that.

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

I don't realy see it as an issue. If they are old enough to have their own paypal they are old enough to know how to use the money.

BDH- I don't really understand why you are upset. I am assuming he paid up front for the minis, so just get him to pay the shipping back to him and you are out nothing.

I've had a couple of adults do this to me, and guess what they did. They just never responded to my emails. It's been a year and I still have both guy's models. At least the kids won't be collecting dust at your place because you can't bring yourself to sell them.

Also, it's not really a contract unless it's on paper with two signatures. I dunno about where you're from, for all I know "Hey I'll come over and look at your car tonight" has a specific performance clause.

What I am really saying is that the legal thing that says "minors can't enter into contracts" is talking about real, legal, paper contracts. It has nothing to do with "Hey lets trade minis" "contracts."

Personally I have only had 1 bad trade experience while here. and Yes it was with a minor. However his father has stepped in and is enforcing the trade (to the best of my knowledge) and it is being handled.

But yes, a minor can enter into a contract but only with the permission of a parent and they become responsible if the minor defaults on the contract.

not that this help our situation...

THIS KIDS LURKING IN B-TOWN CAN SOMETIMES CAN BE

LIKE MO...NS! AND FREAKINGLY STU....D! THEY WOULD GO FOR THE DEAL AND BACK OUT .SO FAR ITS HARD TO AVOID THEM BECAUSE THERE ARE STILL A GOOD NUMBER OF THEM ARE SINCERE AND KNOWS THE VALUE OF THEIR NAME AND REPUTATION, THIS ARE NORMALLY 16 YR.OLD+ AND THE MEDIOCRE ONES 50/50 GOOD 14-15 YR. OLDS. AND GENERALLY PLEASE AVVOID 13 YR.OLD BELOW NOT UNLESS ACCOMPANIED BY A PARENT.

ALSO SOMETIMES THIS PARENTS CAN ALSO BE A BOTHER ,THEY A RE SO PARANOID ABOUT ONLINE SCAMS AND ONLINE MOLESTERS THAT THEY MAKE THEIR KIDS BACKOUT WHILE THE KID IS ALREADY INTO DEEP IN THE DEAL AND GUESS WHO GETS PISSED OFF.

WELL CANT AVOID THIS KIDS WE WERE KIDS ONCE AND THEY STILL WANT TO HAVE FUN PLAYING WARHAMMER ATA REASONABLE COST. WE JUST HAVE TO PLAY OUR OWN GAME TO PLAY SAFE TRADING WITH THEM.

CHEERS TO YA ALL

CARL

I feel your pain but, like Insidius said, there's no way to enforce it. That being said, just because a minor can't legally enter a contract, doesn't mean they can't be held liable for their actions or crimes (mail fraud, etc.).

@BWH: Be sure to document your correspondence with this "kid". And be sure to point out to him that in Ebay & PPs ToS, it clearly states you must be 18 and, if you're not, your accounts can be suspended and that you won't hesitate to contact the admins of those sites.

@nightspawn: Caps lock stuck?

For your cuurent situation, I would advise to refund the initial Paypal payment and keep the models, which you can sell on eBay. The sale price should cover the refund and then some.

Bah.
His loss.

He paid for the models for you to paint for him.
If he wants to back out now, let him back out clean from the point where you ARE.
I would also notify Ebay and PayPal that someone who is a minor is using their sites... keep the proof to provide if necessary.

If it comes back that the guy isn't a kid... then send him another email demanding payment. Advise him that the only way he gets the minis are to pay for them, and you aren't refunding his cost to purchase them originally.

If he halls through on the deal, sell them on ebay (don't allow him to bid) and everything there is profit for you.

I'd even go so far as to watch the locations of bidders to ensure that he doesn't have friends bid for him.

That's my opinion, anyway.

OOPS!

I misread. I thought you had not painted yet.

That is tricky. I've personally never run into that situation. However I always get half up front so that I dont end up in a situation like this. Getting people to put half up front means they are committed and much less likely to deal with this situation. If people arent willing to put up half, then they arent ready to pay the whole price. If they arent ready to pay the whole price...well then they need to wait a bit less this situation arises.

Good luck.

insidius wrote:Short of the site having something like verisign or some age verification tool, I don't see how we can enforce it.

Besides even that, I can't imagine how many traders this community will lose if we did something like that.

losing traders or losing problems? i've seen too many cases of teens, and pre-teens, knowing that because htey're under 18, they can't be held resposible or accountable for anything.
[please, don't ask what the postal inspectors do..it would just inspire the deliquents].

MagickalMemories wrote:

For your cuurent situation, I would advise to refund the initial Paypal payment and keep the models, which you can sell on eBay. The sale price should cover the refund and then some.

Bah.
His loss.

He paid for the models for you to paint for him.
If he wants to back out now, let him back out clean from the point where you ARE.
I would also notify Ebay and PayPal that someone who is a minor is using their sites... keep the proof to provide if necessary.

If it comes back that the guy isn't a kid... then send him another email demanding payment. Advise him that the only way he gets the minis are to pay for them, and you aren't refunding his cost to purchase them originally.

If he halls through on the deal, sell them on ebay (don't allow him to bid) and everything there is profit for you.

I'd even go so far as to watch the locations of bidders to ensure that he doesn't have friends bid for him.

That's my opinion, anyway.

You are forgetting the "kid" paid through Paypal. He can initiate a chargeback and possiblely leave Beowulfdahunter with a frozen account minus the deposit.

Worst case scenario is that Paypal tells you (not asks) to send the mini's back then this person may still even try to initiate a chargeback to further screw you over. Chances are it will go through. You could lose the mini's, deposit, time spent, and end up with a frozen account.

I hate to admit this but simply walking away and taking the easy route makes the most sense. I would not screw around with Paypal because they simply seem to make dumb decisions.

Refund the deposit minus anything you had in Paypal fees. eBay the mini's following Magical_memories advice to recover all the costs. That us the route I would take.

I think it would be appropriate to post the person's eBay ID so we could avoid this person. Hopefully a mod can chime in on this.

What do the postal inspectors do?

Anyways,

Scammers think alike in the way that they always have some sort of reason or justification for their action but more than anything don't give a damn. Doesn't matter who they are or their age: a scammer will scam and find a way to do so.

Adults are just as likely to scam because they think they can "work the system" and use fancy words to defend their actions. Look at Paypal scams. Even if teens 14 and older were able to use Paypal, I can assure you that adults would still corner the market on Paypal scams.

What I think needs to be made clear is that underage traders will be held responsible in some manner even if that means involving their parents when doing business here on Bartertown. Rules apply to every one.

Caveat venditor ...seller beware. The door swings both ways so keep that in mind when dealing on Bartertown or eBay (or wherever).