Bartertown.com

Hey everyone,

So, I recently agreed to sell a small amount of bits to another user. After we agreed to a price, he sent me his address and asked me to ship first.

Now there are 2 problems.
1. The guy lives in Canada, so shipping will probably cost more than within the U.S. (I was charging my standard $2 for a small package)
2. I don't really want to wait 2-3 weeks to get the small amount we agreed upon (it was $7 total, so I would probably net $4 in profit).

He told me that since my rating was lower than his, I should send before getting paid. I've done lots of sales before and I don't believe I've ever sent before payment, since Paypal is in place for that exact reason. AFAIK, paypal can protect a buyer who doesn't get an item they requested, but can't do much to protect a seller who only agreed to a payment via a third party site.

Should I make him pay first?

-DZ

Darkzephyr wrote:Hey everyone,

So, I recently agreed to sell a small amount of bits to another user. After we agreed to a price, he sent me his address and asked me to ship first.

Now there are 2 problems.
1. The guy lives in Canada, so shipping will probably cost more than within the U.S. (I was charging my standard $2 for a small package)
2. I don't really want to wait 2-3 weeks to get the small amount we agreed upon (it was $7 total, so I would probably net $4 in profit).

He told me that since my rating was lower than his, I should send before getting paid. I've done lots of sales before and I don't believe I've ever sent before payment, since Paypal is in place for that exact reason. AFAIK, paypal can protect a buyer who doesn't get an item they requested, but can't do much to protect a seller who only agreed to a payment via a third party site.

Should I make him pay first?

-DZ

for starters you might want to recheck the cost to ship the package, cause you might be screwing yourself there and end up with nothing. also it comes out to what deal you agree to with him, if you have not agreed to a deal let him know you are not comfortable with that, its not like your a "0" feedback member or something.

First I would highly recommend you read this: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=248284

Secondly, shipment and payment should have been agreed upon before either of you took the next step.

Although shipping to Canada is more expensive than in the states, it won't be too much more. However, it WILL be more than 2 dollars. This is why I believe EVERYONE should have their location in their profile. This should have also come up during the trade negotiations - He should have told you he was in Canada - Bartertown is a USA site and as such we Canadians have to respect that - if his location did not say Canada then he should have said something - if his location DID say Canada then you should have said something since your location is blank (he has no clue if you are in Canada or not). What I would do is find out exactly how much the bits will cost to ship and reevaluate your cost to the buyer. This is only fair for both of you. It WILL be more, how much more depends on your shipping selection and how large of the box is.

2-3 weeks? One thing that frustrates me is when people assume Canada is so far behind in the mail times. It takes usually 4-6 business days for a package from the states to reach me in Ontario (this is when it is sent, so does not include processing at the local post office - and I have been sent things from all over the States), the latest 10 business days. Talk to the Postal Officer what they recommend, they usually have a thing on the wall telling you the different approx. transportation times.

**** This does not include Holidays - Yes it will take slightly longer during the Holidays****

There is no rule saying a lower member must ship/pay first. This is where communication must be made between the trade partners. There is also no rule saying buyers have to pay first.

Paypal "Protection" is laughable. A person just has to empty their bank account and the buyer won't be able to get their money back. I've seen it many times. Am I saying this is the case with you? No, but to assume he is protected more than you is not exactly true. I have read many horror stories about buyers and sellers. A seller sends a package with a tracking number and then when the buyer opens it, it is a rock. They try to appeal it and the seller says "Here is pictures of the packaging and shipping - the buyer must have replaced it with a rock to try and scam me". It is ridiculous how easy it is to cheat around the Paypal "Protection".

That being said - I do not believe anyone is trying to cheat anyone out of anything in this case, I am simply stating the facts.

What I would do is talk to him, communicate as to what you want to do. If you feel uncomfortable with shipping first let him know, if he won't budge then walk away.

No agreement has been made at this point since neither of you declared who was shipping and paying first. I would highly recommend you both talk it over and try to come to a reasonable answer.

Hopefully that information helps, if you would like to discuss further please PM me,

Ryan

It's also worth noting that the community is rather divided on the issue of who sends first with a sale. There are many that want payment first, regardless of rating. And there are just as many (like myself) who follow lower rating ships first, regardless of type of transaction.

If you want payment first, that is totally within your right. Hell, if you want people to ship to you first in a trade that is your right. It is up to you and your trade partner to come to some agreement that works for both of you.

Just be aware that many (but certainly no all) higher ref traders will not send any amount of money first to someone with a lower rating, so you somewhat limit your pool of potential customers.

-Jeff

Sinjin wrote:It's also worth noting that the community is rather divided on the issue of who sends first with a sale. There are many that want payment first, regardless of rating. And there are just as many (like myself) who follow lower rating ships first, regardless of type of transaction.

If you want payment first, that is totally within your right. Hell, if you want people to ship to you first in a trade that is your right. It is up to you and your trade partner to come to some agreement that works for both of you.

Just be aware that many (but certainly no all) higher ref traders will not send any amount of money first to someone with a lower rating, so you somewhat limit your pool of potential customers.

-Jeff

Jeff, in this I'd disagree anywhere I've been it doesn't matter who has what rating, if your paying cash you always pay first doesn't matter if the other person only has a couple feedback and you have hundreds, now a trade is a beast of another matter, with trading I can see the lower feedback sending first.

Like he said... the site is divided.
(and, for the record... there is and never will be an OFFICIAL position on this).

PERSONALLY, I find the thought that "cash first, always" is laughable. cash sales aren't really any different than trading, except that you're "trading" money for the item, instead of product for product. Unless you're doing the exchange in person, sending cash first is as risky as sending product first. I don't see any sense in requiring someone to accept a risk on a cash deal that you wouldn't expect them to take on a product for product trade.

To the OP... approach your trade partner RESPECTFULLY. Explain that you were unaware that he was in Canada. Ask him to pay actual shipping, whatever it may be.

Your rating is 16. That is 8 successful trades, presuming no negatives. It's not NOTHING, but it's not exactly established yet, either. What is his rating? If it's notably higher than yours, my OPINION is that you should make the following offer:
"I'll ship first if you agree to pay exact shipping. I'll package it securely and send via the least expensive method available at the US Post Office. When the package arrives, you send the $7 plus actual shipping."
In this case, since he already has the product, you could also REQUEST (but I would not advise you to REQUIRE) that he use the "Friends and Family" option. This means you get a little boost for taking the first risk by not having to pay fees to PayPal. It's a nice little tip of the hat by your buyer to acknowledge you stepping up to the plate.

I would also write a clause into the trade stating that the exchange of POSITIVE references is an agreed upon part of the trade, presuming that the item arrives as promised and the payment is made in a timely fashion.

Eric

Scarapis wrote:

Sinjin wrote:It's also worth noting that the community is rather divided on the issue of who sends first with a sale. There are many that want payment first, regardless of rating. And there are just as many (like myself) who follow lower rating ships first, regardless of type of transaction.

If you want payment first, that is totally within your right. Hell, if you want people to ship to you first in a trade that is your right. It is up to you and your trade partner to come to some agreement that works for both of you.

Just be aware that many (but certainly no all) higher ref traders will not send any amount of money first to someone with a lower rating, so you somewhat limit your pool of potential customers.

-Jeff

Jeff, in this I'd disagree anywhere I've been it doesn't matter who has what rating, if your paying cash you always pay first doesn't matter if the other person only has a couple feedback and you have hundreds, now a trade is a beast of another matter, with trading I can see the lower feedback sending first.

Well, I can see that you're either new to the boards, or haven't read some of the old[er] threads.
I can recall at least 2 threads in the past couple years exactly debating/discussing this subject. With strong thoughts/feelings on both sides.

kturock wrote:

Scarapis wrote:

Sinjin wrote:It's also worth noting that the community is rather divided on the issue of who sends first with a sale. There are many that want payment first, regardless of rating. And there are just as many (like myself) who follow lower rating ships first, regardless of type of transaction.

If you want payment first, that is totally within your right. Hell, if you want people to ship to you first in a trade that is your right. It is up to you and your trade partner to come to some agreement that works for both of you.

Just be aware that many (but certainly no all) higher ref traders will not send any amount of money first to someone with a lower rating, so you somewhat limit your pool of potential customers.

-Jeff

Jeff, in this I'd disagree anywhere I've been it doesn't matter who has what rating, if your paying cash you always pay first doesn't matter if the other person only has a couple feedback and you have hundreds, now a trade is a beast of another matter, with trading I can see the lower feedback sending first.

Well, I can see that you're either new to the boards, or haven't read some of the old[er] threads.
I can recall at least 2 threads in the past couple years exactly debating/discussing this subject. With strong thoughts/feelings on both sides.

the thing of it is, by sending cash thru PayPal you as the buyer are protected, if the seller sends you nothing you get your money back, yes they can clean out their account, but they will always have that debit on their PP account, unlike a trade, if the other party sends nothing , your screwed unless you know someone who lives by them to "persuade" them to comply with the trade.

I disagree about you are protected with Paypal. I would say you may be partially protected at best. I agree with MM's plan, you should ask them to cover shipping, etc.

he thing of it is, by sending cash thru PayPal you as the buyer are protected, if the seller sends you nothing you get your money back, yes they can clean out their account, but they will always have that debit on their PP account, unlike a trade, if the other party sends nothing , your screwed unless you know someone who lives by them to "persuade" them to comply with the trade.

osloco wrote:I disagree about you are protected with Paypal. I would say you may be partially protected at best. I agree with MM's plan, you should ask them to cover shipping, etc.

he thing of it is, by sending cash thru PayPal you as the buyer are protected, if the seller sends you nothing you get your money back, yes they can clean out their account, but they will always have that debit on their PP account, unlike a trade, if the other party sends nothing , your screwed unless you know someone who lives by them to "persuade" them to comply with the trade.

So are you of the thought if you buy something on eBay from a "0" feedback seller, you expect them to ship before you pay them? and yes I know this is not eBay, but how is it different.

It's different because this isn't ebay.

Hey Everyone,

I think I will go ahead and ship this first, if for no other reason than to boost my trade rating.

I'll tell him to pay $5 + actual shipping costs. I think that will be fine. His rating is 98, and I'm pretty confident he'll pay once he receives.

It's different than ebay, because ebay can limit them from selling other items, receiving payment from other items or listing other items; under that account.
Usually ebay scammers have multiple listings.

But then again, that also the same concern about buying from low/zero rated sellers on ebay.

Scarapis wrote:the thing of it is, by sending cash thru PayPal you as the buyer are protected, if the seller sends you nothing you get your money back, yes they can clean out their account, but they will always have that debit on their PP account, unlike a trade, if the other party sends nothing , your screwed unless you know someone who lives by them to "persuade" them to comply with the trade.

I'd like to invite you to investigate someone. He's gone by a few names/ID's but, with any of these, you should be able to find everything you need:

RedStarOne
Matt Bonder
Daniel Mandelbaum (his actual real name, as it turns out).

Being found out MANY times, having numerous eBay, PayPal, DakkaDakka, Bartertown and Facebook accounts/IDs didn't stop him. He just goes underground for a while and pops back up with a different ID.
Having his REAL identity and address discovered didn't stop him. He even got his WIFE involved with it.

Really, and there's no insult intended here, you have no idea what you are talking about. What can be done by someone with little resources -if any- repeatedly is pretty damned ridiculous.

Eric

kturock wrote:It's different than ebay, because ebay can limit them from selling other items, receiving payment from other items or listing other items; under that account.
Usually ebay scammers have multiple listings.

But then again, that also the same concern about buying from low/zero rated sellers on ebay.

Actually I'm more trusting of "0" feedback sellers on eBay these days then anybody with feedback here, let me tell you why, its because eBay instituted a new policy (couple years old now)that until a seller receives so many positive sales eBay will withhold their money up to 10 days or so (in other words after a buyer receives their product).

@Eric its simple, if the seller is not PayPal verified, then don't do business with them, that is my policy and it has never bit me back. it seems obvious if the the sellers name is out there then people will know it is him, since he can't verify his PP account with some other name other then his linked to his bank account.

also people can't scam if your aware of what they are doing, its all in the PP account, you make sure they are verified so you "know" who you are dealing with.

also is this the Resin Forge out of Michigan, or did he steal the name from them ?