Bartertown.com

Hello all:

I sold some items here on BT to a guy about a month ago, he is in Brazil. I gave him a deal on the items and he also asked me to de-value the items so customs would not hit him with high fees and such (this is documented in both our PMs to each other and in the Paypal payment he made to me).

-He paid on the 26th January, 2011.
-I contacted him for his phone number to be included on his parcel.
-I sent the items to him via USPS International First Class, it was insured and traceable (as he requested).
-I then sent all the information to him via PM through BT.
-He contacted me about a month later and said it had not arrived.
-I sent him the tracking results I got and told him he can get the same results by going to www.USPS.com, I told him I hoped it arrived soon and he should contact his local postal service and customs office.
-Today I get a notice from Paypal that he placed a dispute on me for the amount, Paypal has now taken the money out of my account.
-I contacted him and let him know that I thought this was not fair as I have done everything that was my obligation.
-He contacted me and said that he was not going to drop this unless the items arrived.

I did everything he asked, I have proof of sending (physical receipt and online record), tracking number and it was insured. Where is my responsibility in this? Because he has put a dispute in now they have taken the money out of my account which placed my PP account in a negative, I can’t send anything and I cant pay for anything.

To make matters worst, because he wanted me to value the items at the price he did so he could avoid fees, I don’t think the insurance will even cover the items full value because he had me de-value the items to avoid high fees (once again this is documented in PMs and the Paypal receipt).

He has said he is not going to drop the Paypal dispute until the items show up, and if they dont he wil esclate this to a claim (for all I know he has gotten the items).

Should I report this? I have all PMs and receipts, What should I do?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Warlord

The first thing I would do is call PayPal. Talking to a rep might get you a little more traction.

I think you might want to provide some more specific details on the relative amounts in question. What was the value of the goods (what he paid)? What did you mark the package to show? Etc.

The total he paid is as follows:

Total amount paid: $135.00 USD
Total for goods $120.00 (I discounted him $11.00, it was $131.00)
Shipping/insurance was $15.00
Paypal Fee amount: -$5.57 USD

He requested several times that I valued the parcel at $15.00 so it was.

He paid on the 26th and it was shipped on the 28th

The tracking number revels this:

Class: First-Class Mail International
Status: Processed through Sort Facility

Your item was processed through and left our COPPELL, TX 75099 facility on January 29, 2011 at 9:04 pm. The item is currently in transit to the destination. No further information is available for this item.

Detailed Results:
Processed through Sort Facility, January 29, 2011, 9:04 pm, COPPELL, TX 75099
Electronic Shipping Info Received, January 28, 2011

Hope that helps

Warlord

Yes.
Speak with a rep in person.

I AM NOT MAKING ANY ACCUSATIONS. I AM MERELY EDUCATING.

A known scam within Brazil is to order items internationally. After a month, they file a PayPal claim because the items have not arrived. PayPal sides with them and they get their money back. About 60 days after the sender ships, they also receive their items.

You see, Brazil is noted for being SLOW to arrive. Especially when the items are arriving from the US.

Of course, it might not be a scam. It just might be that your trade partner doesn't KNOW that the package will be so late.


Do something. PM me the following information:

1) Trader's User ID
2) The tracking # from your parcel.

Let me look at something.

Definitely make calling PayPal your priority, though. Many, if not all of their Fraud people are familiar with this issue.

Eric

Props to MM on what he said. If you're not on the phone to PayPal RIGHT NOW...well, what are you waiting for?

Warlord2009 wrote:The total he paid is as follows:

Total amount paid: $135.00 USD
Total for goods $120.00 (I discounted him $11.00, it was $131.00)
Shipping/insurance was $15.00
Paypal Fee amount: -$5.57 USD

He requested several times that I valued the parcel at $15.00 so it was.

Dooooooooooooooooooooooooood! Why even bother insuring the parcel? You're looking at recovering about 10% of the value.

Choosing to mark down the value on a package is not a best practice in general (there are legal considerations, but that is not the purpose of this discussion). Marking down the value on a package that you are sending to Italy, France, Mexico, or Russia (or Brazil) is tantamount to dropping it off in the garbage bin rather than the mailbox.

You talking to the rep at PayPal yet?

Best wishes and good luck, mate!

Okay, replied to your PM. However, my fellow associates have pretty much hit all the points. If you can speak Portuguese, here is the Brazilian Postal Agencies website: http://www.correios.com.br/

Thanks guys!

I am going to contact Paypal and see what they say.

What is my responsibility here on BT however? I sent the items in good faith and did all that I was supose to and asked to. If the items dont show should I get stuck with the bill on this? should I fully disclose all to everyone here and leave a negative?

I dont know what my actions should be concerning BT.

What happens when a person sends a parcel and can prove it and it does not arrive, I am feeling because he is the one who asked for the parcel to be under valued that its on him. Otherwise these items would have been covered with the insurance.

Once again I have all the PMs and emails and can show what he requested and that it was sent.

Thanks again,

Warord

Ironhide wrote:Okay, replied to your PM. However, my fellow associates have pretty much hit all the points. If you can speak Portuguese, here is the Brazilian Postal Agencies website: http://www.correios.com.br/

If the items are lost, stolen or damaged, beacuse you only delared the value at $15, the most you will get is $15 if/when the claim is paid.

You won't get the cost of shipping.

So, if you're screwed; you'll be screwed.

Now, if you declared them at $15, and you insured them for $120, customs at either end, could be holding it up to approximate a value.
Then again, the clerk at the window should have noticed this descrepancy and asked you which was correct. Note I said SHOULD have.

Thank you for your comments.

They were valued at $15.00 by his request which is documented so why can’t BT help with this? He is a member of BT and trades here.

It is not like I don’t have proof and I don’t know who the guy is so why should I be screwed and this person not suffer any consequences, he is just going to do this again to someone else.

What is the policy here on BT if a person has sent the items, can show proof of items being sent but they don’t arrive? If these items don’t show it is clearly not my fault as the postal guys lost it and insurance cannot be used because the buyer wanted the items to be valued less then what they are. The buyer has to have some responsibility here. Is there any support from BT or the BT community? this is looking more like a scam to me, this guy knows items comming from the U.S. take longer that 30 days to arrive is what I am guessing.

Warlord

kturock wrote:If the items are lost, stolen or damaged, beacuse you only delared the value at $15, the most you will get is $15 if/when the claim is paid.

You won't get the cost of shipping.

So, if you're screwed; you'll be screwed.

Now, if you declared them at $15, and you insured them for $120, customs at either end, could be holding it up to approximate a value.
Then again, the clerk at the window should have noticed this descrepancy and asked you which was correct. Note I said SHOULD have.

Here is the Brazilian Post confirm tracking site. Put in your tracking/customs number and see it it shows up.
http://www.correios.com.br/servicos/ras ... amento.cfm English Version

@IH -- Good find. I looked for something like that & couldn't find it.
Note for others; like on most sites, it won't let you link directly to the English page. IH's link takes you to the Portuguese page. If you want to click the link for the English site, you HAVE to accept cookies from the site (the b*stards!).

What is the policy here on BT if a person has sent the items, can show proof of items being sent but they don’t arrive? If these items don’t show it is clearly not my fault as the postal guys lost it and insurance cannot be used because the buyer wanted the items to be valued less then what they are. The buyer has to have some responsibility here. Is there any support from BT or the BT community? this is looking more like a scam to me, this guy knows items comming from the U.S. take longer that 30 days to arrive is what I am guessing.

The "policy" on that is nonexistent. It's something you need to work out with him. See my PM to your for advice on doing so.
Your responsibility does not end when the item is shipped. Yours ends when it is delivered.
Looking at the Brazillian postal site, your package shows as not received. At this time, you're not in the clear. If it showed as "delivered," but he was claiming to have not received it, you'd be covered.

The buyer does not have to claim responsibility for your actions. Sure, HE asked you to lower the value and claim it as a gift, but you are the one who made the decision to break the law and do it. You are the only one responsible for your actions.

As I told you via PM, I doubt this is a scam. He's been here years and has a dozer verified trades under his belt. Three (or whatever) years is a LONG TIME to build up for a $120 scam.
That doesn't mean it IS NOT, just that I doubt it.

Eric

Thank you very much for responding to the question could not get a direct answer to that.

Well, seems very unfair that the responsibility falls on me or any other person for sending goods out when clearly you cannot control the shipper. This fella was clearly concerned with lower shipping charges, customs charges and quite frankly I did not know it was "against the law" and wonder if he does. That is ignorance on my part, however if he knew (or did not know for that matter) he has responsibility in that as well.

I looked at the Brazilian postal link and it asks you to “Enter the 13 digits reference number appearing on your receipt into the "Items identifier" box and click on the "SEARCH" button.” It also says “Economy and priority international shipping, as well as Sur Postal Expresso items (reference numbers starting with “XR or R” and ending with “BR”) are only tracked up until the point that they leave Brazil.” It also says it has to end with a “EB” and a “BR” so I don’t know if it will work with my U.S. number or not, further it says that you can track it until it leaves Brazil and the parcel I sent is going to and not coming form – so your guess is as good as mine.

I believe that the buyer needs to accept some responsibility here, it is clear that the parcel has been sent (the tracking number in the U.S. does show tracking). I did what I was supposed to do. Why not be able to say because of what you asked me to do we cannot file an insurance claim for the full value (I would not have valued the parcel less if he did not ask me to do so – I had nothing to gain from doing that). This guy wins no matter what rather it shows up or not.

Given the current situation why even bother shipping to Brazil anyways? 30-90 days shipping times, if it does not show up you loose the funds and the items. I bet filing a claim is no picnic also.

Just my thought.

Warlord2009 wrote: Well, seems very unfair that the responsibility falls on me or any other person for sending goods out when clearly you cannot control the shipper.

You did have some control here though--you could have declared (and insured) actual value of the goods. You could have used an express guaranteed shipping. As one party to the transaction, you are in a position to insist on some measures that protect you.

Warlord2009 wrote: I believe that the buyer needs to accept some responsibility here, it is clear that the parcel has been sent (the tracking number in the U.S. does show tracking). I did what I was supposed to do. Why not be able to say because of what you asked me to do we cannot file an insurance claim for the full value (I would not have valued the parcel less if he did not ask me to do so – I had nothing to gain from doing that). This guy wins no matter what rather it shows up or not.

I do agree with you that he should have waited --contacted you for sure--before going through PayPal. However, my experience with the PayPal process is that it is not instantaneous; the dispute process takes a few days and so you should have been able to mount some sort of a defense.

If this guys is still not talking to you and not being cooperative, I would Neg him without a second thought, doubly so if your package does arrive in the end.

Warlord2009 wrote:Thank you very much for responding to the question could not get a direct answer to that.

Well, seems very unfair that the responsibility falls on me or any other person for sending goods out when clearly you cannot control the shipper. This fella was clearly concerned with lower shipping charges, customs charges and quite frankly I did not know it was "against the law" and wonder if he does. That is ignorance on my part, however if he knew (or did not know for that matter) he has responsibility in that as well..

Why is it unfair? I don't understand.
Granted, it's expensive, but there are ways to ship packages anywhere in the world that the USPS ships (almost), where you can require a signature upon delivery. So, it's not like you *couldn't* have chosen another option. You chose one that, I presume, had the most reasonable shipping costs. Understandably so, in fact.

Sure, he was concerned about charges. Here in the US, we're rather spoiled in that we almost never get stuck with customs fees. Things aren't that easy in most of the rest of the world, where their packages are practically held for ransom. In the end, though, the decision was yours.

There are those who claim that ignorance is not a defense. Sometimes, I agree. Take Bartertown rules, for example. I do not accept ignorance as an excuse. In this case, though, it's quite reasonable to accept it (IMO). I mean, you've got a 44 rating right now. That's 44 completed trades under your belt. You're no newbie to trading any more, but that doesn't mean that you've got a bunch of experience with Inat'l trading. So, I get it. I fail to see, however, how your trade partner should accept responsibility for your actions.

Warlord2009 wrote:I looked at the Brazilian postal link and it asks you to “Enter the 13 digits reference number appearing on your receipt into the "Items identifier" box and click on the "SEARCH" button.” It also says “Economy and priority international shipping, as well as Sur Postal Expresso items (reference numbers starting with “XR or R” and ending with “BR”) are only tracked up until the point that they leave Brazil.” It also says it has to end with a “EB” and a “BR” so I don’t know if it will work with my U.S. number or not, further it says that you can track it until it leaves Brazil and the parcel I sent is going to and not coming form – so your guess is as good as mine..

If you plug in your #, it will attempt to track it for you. This is one place where foreign posal sites often supass our own.

Warlord2009 wrote:I believe that the buyer needs to accept some responsibility here, it is clear that the parcel has been sent (the tracking number in the U.S. does show tracking). I did what I was supposed to do. Why not be able to say because of what you asked me to do we cannot file an insurance claim for the full value (I would not have valued the parcel less if he did not ask me to do so – I had nothing to gain from doing that). This guy wins no matter what rather it shows up or not. .

I still don't understand WHY he should accept responsibility. He's done nothing (that we can prove) which would cause the delayed or lost package. Not being able to file a claim is, frankly, your own responsibility. You made the decision to devalue it.

I agree that your package has been sent. Plugging your # into the USPS site shows that it's been sent. I can't guarantee that it's even left the country, though.

Your item was processed through and left our COPPELL, TX 75099 facility on January 29, 2011 at 9:04 pm. The item is currently in transit to the destination. No further information is available for this item.

IIRC the USPS site specifically states when the package has left the country and says some blurb about no further information being available for it (or something). Maybe kturock's around to confirm that (a) I'm right or (b) I'm talking out of my a-hole.

Warlord2009 wrote:Given the current situation why even bother shipping to Brazil anyways? 30-90 days shipping times, if it does not show up you loose the funds and the items. I bet filing a claim is no picnic also.

Just my thought.

Now, there's an interestig question. One with a number of answers, which has been batted around these fields quite a bit (foreign trades in general - not Brazil in specifically).
Myself, I would only ship there under VERY and SPECIFICALLY limiting trade terms, which would include me not being responsible for items not lost, if I can show proof that they were sent. There are places, like Italy & the Phillipines, where I will not ship at all. That's just me, though.
This kind of a thing is the exact reason why some people refuse to trade, except within their home country.

Eric

Well, you can go back and have the package traced. If the USPS can actually prove that the package entered the Brazilian Postal system, then you can contact Brazil Post and tell them that person A is saying he has not received a package you sent and give them all the info on the package you have. If they come back to you saying the package is held up in customs because Person A will not pay the import fee, then I'd say you would have a BTR. Not only that, you could use the same info for your Paypal dispute on the matter. Also, you can inquire of Brazil Post of what will happen to the package if Person A fails to claim it, and request that it be returned to sender; you may have to pay a fee though.

Note: I use "Brazil Post" to refer to the Brazilian postal system since I don't know how to read Portuguese.