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Okay folks I need some informed opinions on this ruling. I checked the assault rules last night and reread them and still am having problems with this problem.

The rules state that when you declare a charge you must move in the shortest path from your closest model to the enemy closest model, if that forces a difficult terrain test etc, so be it.

The rules further state you can avoid other models on the way into assault and furthermore may move within 1 inch of another model.

My question is this and I know it won't come up all the time but it could-

Let's say I have a lone wolf directly in front of a GH squad. I have an enemy squad at the 12 o clock position, my closest GH model is at the 6 with the lone wolf just ahead and off to the left. The first model takes the shortest path to my GH and lines up in base contact, this also puts him in base contact with the Lone Wolf. So this would be a multiple combat correct? I guess what I am asking is, is it possible IN THIS SCENARIO for the enemy unit to avoid combat with the Lone Wolf and only engage the GH. I fully understand an enemy could fly over my unit and assault from the rear, or could fleet to the 9 oclock position and charge from the side etc.

Another example would be a squad of termies coming out of a landraider front ramp with the LW directly in front of the closest grey hunter in the squad. The termies come piling out of the LR, engage the first GH while ignoring the LW, but the end result is the termie is in contact with both the GH and LW. The rules go on to say the you have to engage as many models as possible in the GH squad so more than likely as other termies came up to engage GH, they too would be in contact with the LW.

Please let me know the ruling on this, I will be using several lone wolves in my infantry list and I want to know the answer before playing with the list.

Oh, I would ask that you provide some proof for your answer one way or the other, as I cannont provide definitive proof either way.

Thanks.

If you are in Base to Base you ARE in Close combat.

If the LW is merely within the 2" HtH "ZONE" they do not HAVE to be engaged.

A lone wolf would HAVE to be based to be engaged as they can not join squads. Similarly to ICs they have to be based to be able to attack in HtH as they are treated as a separate squad in terms of who they can and can not attack.

Norseman, thanks for the response, I am a bit confused however as your second and third statements seem to contradict themselves:

"If the LW is merely within the 2" HtH "ZONE" they do not HAVE to be engaged. "

Okay are you saying if he is within 2 inches of the combat he is in combat?

"A lone wolf would HAVE to be based to be engaged as they can not join squads. Similarly to ICs they have to be based to be able to attack in HtH as they are treated as a separate squad in terms of who they can and can not attack."

So he isn't in combat unless he is in base 2 base- which is what I understood from the rules.


Also: would you agree that if I had my LW directly in front of my leading GH and a unit was assaulting from the front, it would be pretty difficult to not also engage the LW with an enemy base? (such as in my assaulting out of a LR example).

Thanks!

I don’t think you can really force someone to get in base with the Lone Wolf. Even if he’s directly in front of the Grey Hunter model, when your opponent moves closest to closest, he cannot move into base contact with another model before contacting his target model. Unless the enemy model, Lone Wolf and Grey Hunter model were all in a perfectly straight line, the shortest move possible would be to skirt around the LW and move straight into the GH. If you skirt around the LW, and then continue to curve around his base until you contact the LW and GH simultaneously, you’re not moving by the shortest route possible.

Does the Lone Wolf have the Independent Character rule? If so, this argument would be moot, as he would have to stay more than 3” away from any friendly unit.

Lastly, as I don’t have my rulebook with me I can’t check, but in the assault rules, after you move closest to closest and begin moving the rest of your unit, do the models have to endeavor to get into base-to-base with an unengaged enemy model from the unit you declared the assault against, or just base-to-base with an unengaged enemy model while still keeping unit coherency? If it’s the second one, then once all of the models that have skirted around the LW and moved into base with the GH squad, the rest would have to move into base with the LW. I can check this when I get home.

Reegsk,

Thanks for the response, again this is why I am confused. First, he isn't an independent character, he just can't join a unit because of his special rule. I have never heard of having to stay 3" away from a unit, yes I understand that if an IC is within 2 inches of a unit they count as joined, but I have never read a rule that specifies you have to stay over 2" away. I would think the LW's rule over rides the main rulebook (isnt that the order, codex, than rulebook) so he can get as close as he wants, he just isn't joined because of his special rule (I could be wrong, I am certainly no expert).

As far as the other goes- the main rulebook says you have to move the closest path- period. Yes you can skirt around the LW, but you have to hit the GH by the most direct route, at least according to my interpretation. Hence, you couldn't contact the side of the GH base to avoid being in contact with the Lone Wolf as that would not be the shortest route to the GH.

xxxxxxx

LW
ggggggg

In this example all the x models charge straightforward to contact the models closest- they would skirt around the LW but would be inbetween the LW base and the GH base, thus being in contact with both. I could also do an "arrow" formation which would prove my point more but can't figure out how to do it in this text.

You may only move to within 1in of an enemy model u are assaulting.

In the first case with ur squad (exactly?) 6 inches to the max distance and the lone wolf being in the line and in front would make a player either not assault his target (can't move throught models) or assault the lone wolf also if he is somehow in the exact spot in which a model would have to touch both models to come into contact with ur unit. A unit cannot move within and stay within a inch of a model/unit and not be baseto base and decide to not be engaged with it.

As for the termies...what are you asking?
A squad does not have to assault the LW if they don't want to and it is possible to make a ring around your lonewolf with a 3.00000001 inch diameter with termies and decide to not assault the Lw.

Are you trying to ask what happens if a model (A) is within a inch of model (B) when it gets assaulted by enemy (C) in a place in which (A) and (C) must come to within a inch also? In this case if the only place model (C) can reach brings him within a inch of model (A) then he must assault (A) as well or he cannot assault as it would bring him within a inch of a enemy model he was not assaulting. If (C) was the seccond model in a unit then he would either have to move to another model to assault in the unit of (B) or move in the general direction of the assault to try and get base to base with a enemy model.

You cannot force a opponent to assault your units which he hasn't declAired assaults againts unless u have some waky rule that says so,... is there any?

Hope it helps.

EZ: I evidently confused you by my examples.

I understand that you cannot force an enemy to assault a unit.
I understand you can move around models and ignore the 1" rule when assaulting.
What I am asking is this:

Could a lone wolf be position in front of a GH squad such that an enemy that wishes to assault the GH squad would ALSO have to engage the LW as to get into base to base with the GH, would also mean that the LW would be in base to base with a model from the assaulting unit.

The rulebook says the first assaulting model has to move into close combat by the shortest route to the enemy unit. Thus, if a LW is positioned directly in front of a GH squad, the assaulting troop could zigzag around the LW on his charge but end up in base to base contact with both the LW and the GH (as he would hit the backside of the base of the LW).

Could the enemy see this and refuse to charge... Yes.
Could the enemy change his charge arc to avoid the LW and thus fail a charge.. Yes.

But I want to know if I can "force" and enemy to engage the LW (through his position relative to the GH squad) if he wants to assault the GH. I.e. I see his unit, I see my unit, I use terrain to set up a bottleneck to where he has to come in contact with the LW to hit base to base with the GH.

reegsk wrote:If anything, you wouldn’t want to do a straight line like that. If you did, and he had more than one model equidistant to more than one of your models, he could simply just move another one first and avoid the LW entirely. Some sort of arrowhead or pointed formation, where there is one GH which is indisputably closer than the rest would be your best bet.

As to the 2”/3” thing, I’m fairly certain in the core rulebook, one of the rules for ICs and units is that if an IC is not joined to a unit, it must stay 3” away so it’s apparent that the character is not attached. Since the LW doesn’t have the IC rule, that doesn’t matter.

If the LW were in a perfectly straight line with the GH and the enemy closest model, then I would agree that you are correct. But if the LW were slightly off to the side, even a fraction of an inch, then the shortest route would not be to curve to avoid hitting the LW before the GH, and then curve back to contact both at the same time. The shortest route would be to curve around the LW, then just go straight into the GH.

Sorry to quote myself, but that was the PM I sent in response to yours.

I would agree with EZ Mac. . .you can't force someone to assault two units. Unless the three models in question (the Grey Hunter, the Lone Wolf and the enemy model) are in a perfectly straight line, the shortest distance will not bring the charging model into base with both.

You're better off just running the Lone Wolf forward a good 10" in front of the Grey Hunters, so he has to shoot or assault the LW directly, and leaves that unit open to get shot/assaulted by the Hunters.

Also factor into consideration this isnt a unit of a single enemy or a single GH, lets say there are 30 orks trying to assault a squad of grey hunters. Each ork has to attempt to contact a new GH using the shortest path possible- again it seems unlikely all the orks can accomplish this feat without basing the lone wolf as well.

Brian Adair wrote:Also factor into consideration this isnt a unit of a single enemy or a single GH, lets say there are 30 orks trying to assault a squad of grey hunters. Each ork has to attempt to contact a new GH using the shortest path possible- again it seems unlikely all the orks can accomplish this feat without basing the lone wolf as well.

as many as posible would move in base contact aslong as they can stay 1" away from the LW. then they just pile in and still make sure to be 1" away. if the orks don't want to assault the LW they have to stay away.

So you are saying if you can't assault closest to closest and remain 1" away from the LW you can't assault?

sorry this took sooo long... had to type it....Brian please reread page 34.

... from page 34...
Moving assaulting models
All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault moves following the same rules in the Movement phase, with the exception that they may move within 1 inch of enemy models. This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models, may not move though gaps narrower then their base, and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting.

Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many models as possible-no holding back! Start each assault by moving a single model from the assaulting unit. The model selected must be the one clostest to the enemy (going around impassible terrain, freindly models, and enemy models in units not being assaulted. Move the model into contact with the nearest enemy model in unit being assaulted, using the shortest possible route. Roll for difficult or dangerous terrain if necessary, and if the model is killed by a dangerous terrain test, start the assault again with the next closest model. If the closest model is to be found not to be within move distance to the enemy, that assault does not happen and no model is moved.

If the enemy is within range, then the assault move continues. After moving the the first model in the unit, you may can move the others in any sequence you desire. There are some restraints on their movement tho:
* The most important one is that each model must must end its assault move in coherency with another model in its own unit that has already moved.

*If possible the model must move into base to base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already base to base contact with an assaulting model.

*If there are no such models in reach, the model must move into base to baase contact with an enemy model that is already in base to base contact with an assaulting model.

*if a model cannot reach any models, it must try to move within 2' of one of its own units models that is already base to base contact with an enemy.

*if this is impossible, it must simply stay in coherency.

ok so you can move within a inch of a enemy model you are not wishing to assault. You also must follow all the things in the paragraphs in addition to following the bullet points for all secondary movers in a unit. It is only the first model which must move tward the closest model as it says "If possible the model must move into base to base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already base to base contact with an assaulting model".

In you example of the XXXX and LW and GGGGG you would simply move whichever is closest and bypass the LW. If you wanted to assault the LW then so be it but it is not in the rules to force a player to do so. The rest of the unit would then be allowed to move (one at a time) in coherency with models you already moved in any order you want to try and reach enemy models from the assaulted unit. YOU DO NOT NEED TO MOVE THEM CLOSEST TO CLOSEST OR IN A STRAIGHT LINE, that is only the first model.



QUESTIONS? this is straight from the book

Brian Adair wrote:So you are saying if you can't assault closest to closest and remain 1" away from the LW you can't assault?

you must move the FIRST closest model to the closest enemy model then the rest of the unit would need to stay away from the LW by 1inch. IF the first model cannot reach the first model without assaulting the LW then yes the assault would npt happen as all secondary assaults are caused by the secondary models and NOT BY THE FIRST CLOSEST.

Brian Adair wrote:As far as the other goes- the main rulebook says you have to move the closest path- period. Yes you can skirt around the LW, but you have to hit the GH by the most direct route, at least according to my interpretation. Hence, you couldn't contact the side of the GH base to avoid being in contact with the Lone Wolf as that would not be the shortest route to the GH.

xxxxxxx

LW
ggggggg

In this example all the x models charge straightforward to contact the models closest- they would skirt around the LW but would be inbetween the LW base and the GH base, thus being in contact with both. I could also do an "arrow" formation which would prove my point more but can't figure out how to do it in this text.

the rulebook says only the first model must move in the most dirrect path. period.

the
xxxxxx x

LW
ggggggg
would simply have red charge blue (if he is the closest) and have the rest go around the LW to that side or even to the onther depending on your base size and relative locations of the g's behind him.

At no point in this picture is there a full on case of models must charge the LW if all are within 6in of a g as red here can just charge someone on the other side and bring the assault that way

Brian Adair wrote:Also factor into consideration this isnt a unit of a single enemy or a single GH, lets say there are 30 orks trying to assault a squad of grey hunters. Each ork has to attempt to contact a new GH using the shortest path possible- again it seems unlikely all the orks can accomplish this feat without basing the lone wolf as well.

does not have to be the shortest possible path except for the first closest model, the rest must just try to assault a new model, if they cannot do this they must attempt to get b2b with a enemy model already in b2b, if they cant do this then they must try to get within 2' of a freindly model in b2b and if all else fails just stay in coherency.