Should "Deadbeats" include those who don't leave r

[MagickalMemories]

"Buying is different from trading"


GAH!

Fine.
I don't want to BUY your stuff. I want to trade yo.
If you send me your stuff, I'll TRADE YOU for this cash!

Same damned thing!


On ratings, I should have pointed something else out...
If I'm trading with someone who has a higher rating than I do, I ALWAYS offer to ship first unless they beat me to the subject.
I'm no hypocrite. I follow my rules, regardless.

If I'm trading with porkuslime or starslayer (for example), I will offer to ship first with NO hard feelings.

The only exception to that is Darksoul. I don't know if I trust him.
I used to worry about him because he was openly evil. Now I just worry about him because he likes Dora the Explorer too much.

Eric

[maple]

I was one of the folks who voted "yes", mainly because I am scared of Magickal Memories.

As a lower rated trader, every trade/sale/purchase that I make is important to me. It increases my trade rating, which in turn makes it easier for me to "seal the deal" with hesitant traders.
I know I am honest, but seeing as others do not, I rely on a good trade rating and good communication to help me make clean trades.
I am always willing to ship first to higher rated traders, as long as they agree with the aspects of the trade. (Recently a higher rated trader sent his payment first, as he asked to send a personal check rather than a USPS MO)

I am a firm believer that once the other traders end of the bargain is upheld, then you should post their trade reference. (With the aforementioned trade, once the check cleared, he was given a good reference) I realize that the other person can still leave you a BTR, but as long as their end of the deal was upheld as agreed upon, then they deserve the GTR.

What drives me nuts (besides wondering why Cindy Margolis won't return my calls) is when a person does not leave a GTR even though you upheld your end of the deal. I pride myself on my good packaging of mini's, quick (often more expensive than needed) shipping and good communication. I (and many other on BT) will go out of my way to make sure that the other party is satisfied, but some folks still refuse to take a minute to express their satisfaction via a GTR.
I have had 3 buyers/ traders not leave me a reference, and those 6 "points" would have greatly helped my meager rating. The only way that I can get to the magical "100" rating that many people seem to set as a bench mark is through folks leaving me a GTR. I have gone out of my way to help other sellers/ traders by posting a GTR for them, I think it is only fair for them to do the same for me.

-mat

[Adunaphel]

I have been sitting here thinking about this and the only problem I have with this thread is the fact that everybody who has posted here CARES.

Now I know that Jerry (consectari) has stated one reason for not leaving a reference. I ONCE didn't leave a reference when I didn't receive my items for 6 months. MEDEVL was all over me to leave him a negative ref, but I was still new here and I didn't want to cause waves. That was back on the old Bartertown and it might have even been back in the last century. LOL.

Harlequin raises a good point. If you are outside the U.S. you better have one heck of a rating (and I don't mean just the numbers) for me to do a deal with you. Sorry, it's just that I have had several packages lost during international trades. I NEVER ship to Italy but that is a different story.

I agree with Insidius that if we don't watch out we will litigate (ugh, lawyers) ourselves out of existence. Who will want to trade if you have a hundred different things you have to worry about.

I still would love to hear from some of the guys who WON'T leave a reference for a trade that has gone smoothly. Do they not know how? Does it take too much time? Is the "Post a Trade Ref" system too hard to figure out? Why?

I won't hold my breath. I doubt that any of them would care enough to post here.

The only other thing to worry about is the fact that if you send a "Give me a reference or see your name in the BTR" note to a trader, you might not like the reference you get...

Karl

[CypherIsGod]

It definitely does hurt those with lower ratings more when someone doesn't leave feedback. I remember when I was starting out and I had several people not leave me feedback... and it pissed me off. Here I am trying establish a good rating and these jerks with very high ratings didn't care about leaving feedback anymore. What choice did I have though? I was too afraid to send an upset PM for fear of getting a bad trade report. If they felt like doing that just to spite me, what would I be able to do? I could say that I upheld my end of the bargain, but it would be my word against theirs. As you can see from several threads, higher rating means more integrity on this site. So, I just shut up and kept trying. I guess what I am trying to say is to make sure to leave feedback, no matter how high or low yours is. Leave it immediately. If I have someone ship to me first, I should not wait to post the rating. Not doing that almost sounds like BTR intimidation. "I'm not leaving you feedback, low rating guy, until you leave me the positive feedback from my side of the trade." Of course this goes unsaid, but it is what it is.

Also, MM, I could not disagree with you more. I could not care less what their posting count is on this site. This is Bartertown, not Messagetown. The person's trader rating is what matters to me. If the have 5 posts or 500 posts, I don't care. I was a very silent trader on here for years. I came on to trade, not to chat. It wasn't until recently that I've gotten older and have nothing better to do than have conversations on message boards for my fun. (By the way, not a dig in any way, but when I was younger - not married - had not kids - etc... I would go out a lot more, or be playing the games we trade stuff for a lot more.) Maybe it is the fact that I was one of those solid, but silent traders that got me this mindset, but I don't think message count should have anything to do with how to treat a trader on here.
We are not all post-whores.... (By the way, that was a gentle dig on you MM, only referencing the self appointed title you had given yourself in the past)

Bottom line, when you receive a good trade, LEAVE FEEDBACK!

Lastly, (jeez I ramble on....) maple, I don't think 100 is necessarily the magic number. I'm only at 80ish and I will not ship first. This is more because I have no patience to wait more than a principle thing though.

[brettness37]

I got a PM stating the person I traded with "didn't have time just now to leave me a ref" WTF!!! It had to have taken longer to send the PM than leave the feedback. As a note of interest, the trader has well over 150 rating, and seems to have time to trade (I'm assuming since he's getting refs from others, which don't look as though they are getting refs from him either).

I'd like to know the real reason I'm not getting feedback, but I don't think it's going to happen.

[Massawyrm]

That I can recall, you and I have never traded. To be honest, though, I think I'd probably ask that you ship first, if we did trade. Nothing against you... it just falls in with a loose formula I've created for myself.

No offense taken. In fact it was exactly what I was talking about. I certainly understand it. Doing this insures you don't get burned and why wouldn't you protect yourself? What it does though, is create this weird middle caste in which guys like me DO Simul-ship with guys with 20+ ratings. I have traded a few times with the big boys, but I always go in knowing what to expect. But I spend most of my time looking to do deals with guys in the same range as me. Not having gotten burned here yet (much to the amazement of most of my buddies) it might be a bit of naivety on my part, but it makes for quick happy trades.

[ancientsociety]

No offense taken. In fact it was exactly what I was talking about. I certainly understand it. Doing this insures you don't get burned and why wouldn't you protect yourself? What it does though, is create this weird middle caste in which guys like me DO Simul-ship with guys with 20+ ratings. I have traded a few times with the big boys, but I always go in knowing what to expect. But I spend most of my time looking to do deals with guys in the same range as me. Not having gotten burned here yet (much to the amazement of most of my buddies) it might be a bit of naivety on my part, but it makes for quick happy trades.

If you acknowledge that the status quo here is "lower rating ships first", but then you personally don't adhere to it, aren't you thereby the one creating the "middle caste" you speak of?

[MagickalMemories]

It definitely does hurt those with lower ratings more when someone doesn't leave feedback. I remember when I was starting out and I had several people not leave me feedback... and it pissed me off.

My very first trade on BTOWN was with someone with well over a 100 rating (back in '02). I don't remember who it was, but I remember that I didn't get a reference from him, though I left one FOR him.
That was quite the first trade. It really set in stone my desire to ALWAYS leave positive feedback for trades when it is deserved. Admittedly, there were times when I chose not to leave a ref, but that was because I didn't think the person deserved a -10, OR a +1 or +2... So, "no ref" it was.
Anyway, my point is that I know exactly what you mean... and I agree

Also, MM, I could not disagree with you more. I could not care less what their posting count is on this site. This is Bartertown, not Messagetown. The person's trader rating is what matters to me. If the have 5 posts or 500 posts, I don't care. I was a very silent trader on here for years. I came on to trade, not to chat. It wasn't until recently that I've gotten older and have nothing better to do than have conversations on message boards for my fun. (By the way, not a dig in any way, but when I was younger - not married - had not kids - etc... I would go out a lot more, or be playing the games we trade stuff for a lot more.) Maybe it is the fact that I was one of those solid, but silent traders that got me this mindset, but I don't think message count should have anything to do with how to treat a trader on here.

Disagree with me?
What!
Somebody get the ban-stick!
LOL
I totally understand your point, and I'm certain there are more that agree. To many people, post count won't matter... and I'm cool with that.
I'm not certain if I was unclear, though, or if you didn't catch what I meant (or, maybe I WAS clear AND you caught my meaning, but I missed something in your reply)... It isn't that I look at that as a way of "judging" someone's trustworthiness. It's more like an enhancement.
All other things being equal, someone with a higher post count has more time and energy invested in Bartertown and, compared to someone with a very low post count, I will feel more trust towards them.
That was my point.
A zero rating with 500 posts is stilla zero rating, though. LOL

We are not all post-whores.... (By the way, that was a gentle dig on you MM, only referencing the self appointed title you had given yourself in the past)

You can "dig" at me. It's fine. You're allowed.
I'm thick skinned.
FWIW, though, I didn't "self appoint" it. It was appointed to me. I just openly embraced it with good humor.
If we can't laugh at ourselves first, we shouldn't laugh at anyone else.

No offense taken. In fact it was exactly what I was talking about. I certainly understand it. Doing this insures you don't get burned and why wouldn't you protect yourself? What it does though, is create this weird middle caste in which guys like me DO Simul-ship with guys with 20+ ratings. I have traded a few times with the big boys, but I always go in knowing what to expect. But I spend most of my time looking to do deals with guys in the same range as me. Not having gotten burned here yet (much to the amazement of most of my buddies) it might be a bit of naivety on my part, but it makes for quick happy trades.

1) My buddies are shocked and amazed that people will just send stuff to other people in hopes that the person will send stuff back, too. Grown men in 6 figure (and higher) jobs, and they absolutely refuse to accept the value of, for example, a 200 rating (meaning 100 or more successful trades).
"Too much room to get ripped off" they say.
Fine by me. I built a 3000+ point SM army for slightly over half retail (all new stuff except for a few stripped metal scouts) while they buy their stuff from GW or (occasionally) the warstore.
Whatever!

As for the "meat" of your post... I don't think a "caste" system exists here. I think it's more capitalistic, if anything.
Ina caste system, you're stuck in your societal role where, in a capitalistic society, anyone can rise up to lofty places if they do it right.

What it does do is create varying levels of "high ratings."
You, at 50+, trading with a 20+ trader have the "high rating."
Trading with me, you lose that "status" and have the low rating.
I turn around and trade with ancientsociety, and the "high rating" switches again.
He trades with Darksoul... you get the idea.

The bottom line is that it's all relative.
I can understand your feelings about your rating.
When I hit 50, I was stoked.
"Finally, some trust!"
Like you, I discovered that the "trust" came from those lower than me, rather than higher. Why? Because I'd earned more than them.
I could count the number of trades on one hand, probably, where I had the lower rating and didn't ship/pay first. ALL of those came after I hit 100.

If you acknowledge that the status quo here is "lower rating ships first", but then you personally don't adhere to it, aren't you thereby the one creating the "middle caste" you speak of?

I have 2 thoughts...
First; I believe he adheres to it... but doesn't like it.
I think he feels like he's earned the trust, and feels the frustration of having to wait.

The other thought is that you pose an interesting thought, AS and I'll be paying close attention to the (still on topic) tangent that my arise from it.

(Though I still disagree with the usage of "caste")

Eric

[YoungWolf777]

No offense taken. In fact it was exactly what I was talking about. I certainly understand it. Doing this insures you don't get burned and why wouldn't you protect yourself? What it does though, is create this weird middle caste in which guys like me DO Simul-ship with guys with 20+ ratings. I have traded a few times with the big boys, but I always go in knowing what to expect. But I spend most of my time looking to do deals with guys in the same range as me. Not having gotten burned here yet (much to the amazement of most of my buddies) it might be a bit of naivety on my part, but it makes for quick happy trades.

If you acknowledge that the status quo here is "lower rating ships first", but then you personally don't adhere to it, aren't you thereby the one creating the "middle caste" you speak of?

See, now that's a prime example of why he brings up the caste system. By firmly adhering to the rating vs. shipping system YOU are creating a 2 caste system. Upper and lower. (And by you, I mean anyone who sticks to it fervently.)

For example: if ancientsociety and I were to negotiate a deal right now, my rating is currently 310 and his is 338. By slavishly following the "low guy ships first" rule "cuz Bartertown says so", I would have to swallow my 160+ good transactions and ship first. However, if my rating were to creep up to 340, then I could use the "low guy ships first" rule "cuz Bartertown says so" on ancientsociety's 338 if I so desired and force him to ship first. Would he stand for that???

I went on record waaaay back when I was in the 10~20 rating range saying it was crap and I still stand by it. I got a lot of "we'll see how you feel when you're over 100" type statements. You know what? It hasn't changed one bit. It's still an elitist and isolationist policy and I don't like it one iota. I can count on one hand the number of folks that I have outright asked to ship first, and their ratings were either 0 or 8 or less and were fairly recent joins to the site. I do my homework on feedback. I have yet to get burned.

What I also find to be true to this day is there is still the "old guard" mentality as well. Rating be darned. MM is a rare exception to this, and a breath of fresh air and rationality most days. But many of the long-timers here on the site just can't seem to stomach the thought of this site changing, possibly for the better. Maybe even fostering a sense of community that gets bandied about so often. Heaven forbid the long-time users greet newcomers with anything but suspicion or thinly veiled hostility.

If that opinion brands me as a rebel and a traitor, then so be it. It's nothing new. I've faced down cancer once, and I'm in the middle of doing it again. Grumpy old men who won't give me the courtesy of responding to a PM with a simple "no thanks" are nothing. The curmudgeons haven't chased me away yet, nor am I going anywhere any time soon. Love me, like me, or hate me, I'm here to stay.

[peacemystic]

[If that opinion brands me as a rebel and a traitor, .

Now only if Darth Eric would say "Your a traitor and a member of the Rebel Alliance"

Having said that,i just offered to trade with a person with a 0 rating...only to find out there offer in trade was a PDF file,whilst i will trade with someone with a Zero Rating there is no way on Earth,i'm going to trust one.

And for the record,i declined the trade and informed he was breaking copyright as well as batertown rules

[Massawyrm]

I have 2 thoughts...
First; I believe he adheres to it... but doesn't like it.
I think he feels like he's earned the trust, and feels the frustration of having to wait.

On the nose. Although to address AS's point, it is more of a cyclical cause than a definitive one. Am I willingly participating in this middle caste? Absolutely. I am to blame for its existence as far as my participation. But it is a direct product of the ceiling-free "Lower rating ships first" concept. I am not creating my place in the caste by mere choice, but as a result of the system already in place. It is quicker, easier and more enjoyable to trade with those of "my own kind" than it is to trade with those who should be held as the very example of who you should trade with - those with insanely high ratings that have proven time and again that they are trustworthy.

All I'm saying is that while I understand the origin of the practices, they ultimately create a sub environment that is entirely counter to the ideal. As a trader I should be looking first and foremost to trade with the top guys, and it is exactly just the opposite.

[peacemystic]

I have 2 thoughts...
First; I believe he adheres to it... but doesn't like it.
I think he feels like he's earned the trust, and feels the frustration of having to wait.

On the nose. Although to address AS's point, it is more of a cyclical cause than a definitive one. Am I willingly participating in this middle caste? Absolutely. I am to blame for its existence as far as my participation. But it is a direct product of the ceiling-free "Lower rating ships first" concept. I am not creating my place in the caste by mere choice, but as a result of the system already in place. It is quicker, easier and more enjoyable to trade with those of "my own kind" than it is to trade with those who should be held as the very example of who you should trade with - those with insanely high ratings that have proven time and again that they are trustworthy.

All I'm saying is that while I understand the origin of the practices, they ultimately create a sub environment that is entirely counter to the ideal. As a trader I should be looking first and foremost to trade with the top guys, and it is exactly just the opposite.

TraderChick comes to mind as "your own kind " i believe she had a rating around 50 before she started ripping people off,and i can think of others with ratings in the 30's and 40's

we all started off with a 0 rating,we have all been there,i traded with higher rating traders because i knew the chances of being rippped off were far less likely.
It seems by looking too your own rating your putting Speed above Safety,well relative safety anyways.

I don't understand it myself,but if it floats your boat,go for it

[Adunaphel]

Ahh. Here we go again. We have left the "should we post BTR's on traders who don't leave references" and gone back down the road to "rating elitism". A term, I believe, that was first used by somebody who isn't a member here anymore (keep calm Rhaalidor).

I would say, by the votes, it looks like the idea of a BTR forum for lazy Ba$tages that won't leave a reference has been trounced.

While I really detest guys who won't take the minute or two to leave a reference, I think it is overkill to publicly post them. Just put them in your personal DNT list.

And I won't comment about a personal DNT list floating around. Jeez.

I guess I would be surprised if someone LIKE ancientsociety ASKED someone LIKE Youngwolf77 to ship first. That seems WAY too stringent to me, but I know everybody is different. I understand "lower ships first", but I will simulsend with guys who have much lower reference (down to about the 20's) IF the content of the references they have looks good.

There are some guys with 50's who have posted here that I would gladly simul-send with because of the CONTENT of their references more than the actual NUMBER. Although, the international is still a hurdle for me and I understand completely where EVERY reference is useful to him.

Most of the high rated guys have been very good to me and I don't mind shipping first to somebody who has a MUCH higher rating. I would be a little dubious if somebody with about the same rating as me asked me to ship first.

The biggest point is the fact that although you might not like their trading practices, the high rated traders are almost always going to come through with their end of the trade. Period.

They have worked hard to get that rating and in some ways they deserve a certain amount of preferential treatment.

Karl

[ancientsociety]

I went on record waaaay back when I was in the 10~20 rating range saying it was crap and I still stand by it. I got a lot of "we'll see how you feel when you're over 100" type statements. You know what? It hasn't changed one bit. It's still an elitist and isolationist policy and I don't like it one iota. I can count on one hand the number of folks that I have outright asked to ship first, and their ratings were either 0 or 8 or less and were fairly recent joins to the site. I do my homework on feedback. I have yet to get burned.

What I also find to be true to this day is there is still the "old guard" mentality as well.....

If that opinion brands me as a rebel and a traitor, then so be it. It's nothing new. I've faced down cancer once, and I'm in the middle of doing it again. Grumpy old men who won't give me the courtesy of responding to a PM with a simple "no thanks" are nothing. The curmudgeons haven't chased me away yet, nor am I going anywhere any time soon. Love me, like me, or hate me, I'm here to stay.

*teeny music playing*

That's the world's smallest violin playing for your plight....

Please, this topic has been discussed ad nausem elsewhere. Stop trying to brand yourself as some "champion of the little guy" before we start addressing you as "Mr. Nader"....with all the flippancy and sarcasm its real-life counterpart deserves.

The whole "ITL elitism" discussion was nothing more than someone's feelings being hurt because they didn't feel "special"...and the only person they had to blame for feeling that way was themselves (and/or their parents' for raising them as "special little snowflakes"). It was baseless, silly, and illogical.

Whether you feel like a "traitor" or a "rebel", no one's calling you such. Thanks for being part of the community and contributing to the discussion but let's try to say SOMEWHAT on-topic.

In regards to your example, I have no problem simul-shipping with someone who has the same ballpark rating that I do. Most of us who have been around a while (regardless of ITL rating) tend to take it as a given that one of the exceptions (if you will) to the lower rating ships first rule is that we simul-ship if there's a same ballpark rating. My usage of the "middle caste" in my last comment was a direct quotation of someone else, not my own words. I was simply asking a logical question.

[Massawyrm]

Absolutely, Peacemystic. But that doesn't address the other half of the beef which was holding Refs hostage until your ref was first served. That's really where this conversation sprang from. What I was talking about wasn't just about shipping first.

But I seriously don't want to slag on the grognards. The few I've dealt with in trades have been professional and I've had zero trouble getting my stuff.