One last question: "Counts as" or New Army

[porkuslime]

2. I will fix your statment for you. "Dern straight. because I am personally wealthy, I will buy and model an entire new army for each chapter and use this as a basis to gain as many unfair advantages over my opponents who are not able to buy as many models as I can. Then I will hide this by saying well, I model them all seperately so you have to as well".

Edit: Gotta laugh, prove the guy wrong and just as if I was using grey blood angels, he takes his ball and goes home with a parting insult. lol

EVIL INC.. this is a perfect example of a personal attack post. You do not know John, nor does he know you. I think the 2 of you are on opposite sides of the country, even. Re-wording to "fix" is a deliberate smack to him.

You continue to do this and you will be suspended. Is that clear?

So if, when I log in tomorrow, that BS is still up, I'm going to take it as a sign that admin isn't going to address the behavior displayed and that full-on flaming is acceptable. At that point, I'm going to light up this thread like you haven't seen in quite a while, because lord knows I've got a lot of stored up spleen to vent.

John.. that is not a wise thing as well. While admins have been in this thread, we also have lives and don't live on BT 24/7. If you want to commit full-on flaming, so be it.. it is your choice. Also understand that actions have consequences and if you choose to exercise your right to vent your spleen.. you also have the right to sit in a corner for a couple weeks. Capice?

ON TOPIC..

I don't think anyone here is going to have issues with grey space marines (I am making an assumption that this means unpainted plastic) representing any codex in the SM range, for a friendly game or to help decide what they want to do.

However, If someone has a beautifully painted, codex scheme Space Wolf army and wants to try to use the new Blood Angel codex.. he is going to HAVE to accept that there will be issues with opponents being confused or possibly mocking. Codex paint is clearly indicitive of how an army "typically" plays and is configured.

IF (continuing the example).. MY Space Wolves (who are painted NON standard in brick red) were to take the field and I claim they were a BA successor chapter.. IT MIGHT FLY ... but may not. I painted them in the manner I did cause I hate light gray and yellow. Personal choice. I fully expect to get hassled at a tourney if I go as SW.. OR as anyone else other than vanilla cause the paint is so divergent.

[EVIL INC]

Lets try to avoid the personal attacks and flames. I am tired of seeing them and as I have not done it myself, it is annoying to see others do it.
You missed my last post. I specifically pointed out the red paint jobs on ork vehicles.
Yes, Mm pointed out that the icons will not match. Of course, that is assuming that the space wolves are the ONLY chapter to use wolves as their totem. However we know that they are not. This means that other chapters are free to use wolf embelms, tails and pelts. A werewolf chapter is no more outrageous then a vampire chapter so there is nothing wrong with it.
Likewise, I am SURE that most players have a memory span larger then that of a goldfish. That means that there can be no confusion as to what ruleset you are using. The only way there could possibly be any confusion at all whatsoever is if the opponent was a total fool with the memory span of a goldfish (in which case, they have no business playing to begin with) or if the blood angel player actually lies to the opponent and tells them they are using the space wolf rules and then switches to blood angels rules without telling them.
That being said, Any frustration at seeing space wolf models used as blood angel models has nothing at all to do with getting confused about the codex being used. It can only be about either A. personal taste or B. elitism in trying to gain an unfair advantage through having more money. Rules are not in question because it has been proven that the rules support the ability to use space wolf models to represent a blood angels successor chapter.
So in friendly games, you will have no problems. Not even any annoyance factors.
In tourneys, You should be ok but be ready to catch flak from others. However, in some tourneys, the elitists have historically pitched such a fit that the organizers kowtow to them because they spend a lot of cash. Ask ahead of time.

Just remember that the rulebook supports it. If someone refuses you a game for it, THEY are the ones looking bad and THEY will be the one who will find less and less opponents to play. YOU will have no problems finding games and it will actually make it EASIER for you to get them because most players will support you. Elitism is MUCH more often found on the internet then in real life. You will have no issues except maybe at some tourneys and even then, as someone pointed out earlier, the tourneys who disallow you to use models from one space marine chapter range to represent marines from a different chapter are enforcing their own house rules rather then the official ones.

[starslayer]

The icons/paint scheme ,etc are there for a reason- so models are instantly recognizable. You will find people who will have a problem with your crossing of Space Wolves=Blood Angels combo. This thread alone proves it.
Personally I probably wouldnt have a problem with it, as long as it wasnt taken too far.

[EVIL INC]

The icons are really there to make the models look "cool" and to sell for more money to those who have the funds to pay for a cooler looking model not to make them recognizable.
For every elitist you find online who tells you that you HAVE to use only official blood angel models with blood angel iconography sculpted on in order to have a blood angel army, you will find a hundred who simply will not care. Here is the rub though, the ones who are going to tell you no are the majority of the ones who will post and the ones who will try to argue their silly stance (in spite of being proven wrong). When you go offline and into the real life gaming community in terms of actual tabletop face to face players, you will have even MORE players who will not care and that the real life players who dont care will stand up for your rights more then they will online.
To the op, dont let the internet bullies dissuade you from what you want to do. Imagination and conversions ARE supported by the rules and the gaming community as a whole. Dont forget that in terms of finding games, you will have no problems while those who jeer or make fun are the ones who look bad and will find themselves unable to find games.

[porkuslime]

For every elitist you find online who tells you that you HAVE to use only official blood angel models with blood angel iconography sculpted on in order to have a blood angel army, you will find a hundred who simply will not care.

I am not arguing that you have to use "official BA Models" to represent the Blood Angels. I am saying that once you have paint on ANY models, then you are kinda stuck... even more so if you use the official iconography and paint scheme.

[mrrshann618]

Most of us have not stated that you have to use "official chapter" models for that chapter.
I even stated that go ahead and bling your figures up as you see fit, provided you change the Iconography so to avoid confusion.

Evil Inc. I have a task for you, Go through all the GW icons for the chapters and everything, and show me where they use two identical sybols for two different chapters. They always have a vaiant of the theme. Hell I'd be perfectly satisfied if you added a blood drop to any wolf icon (Blood Wolves) with like blood dripping from the teeth. That way you could easily say you are a SW or BA divergent chapter. It would also be easily apparant that you are not playing "Space Wolves" or "Blood Angels" even though you are using your rules.

MY problem with this is when you get someone who makes a SPECIFIC group of individuals that are easily recognizeable for what they are by most people who play the game and then go off and explain they they are constantly something else.

Actually I am one of those people who have the forced attention span of a gold fish. There are many times that I am watching my kid at the same time I'm playing. When you have constant 4yr old distractions, along with long breaks in the game for various reasons I generally do not remember every tiny detail. I also find that many times the attention span just really isn't there for many of the younger generation. I'm not going to deny them playing, as a matter of fact I try to make it as easy as possible for them to play by playing what I have out there. I'm the kind of person who would simply play what I have, painted as what I have rather than proxy unless I'm trying something out.

When I look across the table and I see the Ultramarines 5th company in full colors I'm going to have a tough time remembering that you are actually playing Blood Angels. This is also attributed that due to time constraints I get to play once every five weeks at the best of times. So since I get less than 12 games a year in on average YES I'm the type of person who likes to be able to identify what your doing when you have a paint job.

As stated earlier I'd allow you to try different rules but if I constantly am going to have a problem differentiating what you are actually playing this week, especially if you flip flop back and forth between armies, then I'm simply not going to play as I want my less than a dozen games to be enjoyable and not me worrying about what you are really playing.

[wookieegunner]

Evil, the issue is that for Canon chapters the colors and iconagraphy IS part of WYSIWYG. That is what we are pointing out. Let me give you an example. We are both playing Space Marines, it is your turn and you have a unit of tacticals 11" away from a unit of my Tacticals. Now my Tacticals have Furious Charge. Do you: A) Stand there and double-tab or B) Move forward and Assualt? Now same situation but mine have Counter Attack. Now which do you do?

That is the concern. Your opponent has an expactation that certain units do certain things. This is the core of WYSIWYG. Now for Canon chapters, the fact that they are painted and modelled a certain way helps to reinforce the specific rules they follow, hence why it is part of WYSIWYG, especially in tournamnets when you are under a time crunch and often planning things out for multiple turns at once. Forcing your oponent to look at a Space Wolf mini and say "wait that isn't a Space Wolf, that is a Blood Angel so has a different set of rules I have to deal with" is really no different than saying "that Marine with a flamer, actually has a melta-gun so has a different set of rules that I have to deal with".

As far as the rule I was talking about, I did find GW's 2008 GT rule pack and the exact rule is "Traits may be used; if using a Chapter with traits defined in the Codex then those traits must be used" which being that it is talking about Codex Space Marines should be as official as your rule also talking about Codex Space Marine (as opposed to Codex Space Wolf or Codex Blood Angel which is what the OP was discussing) in regards to how a tournament would handle it.

[Ironhide]

From the beginning a lot of us have been saying that it is up to your opponent. However, to blatantly say it can't be done is a misnomer. Players should always be encouraged to use "count as" models; otherwise, you'll end up spending too much money while looking for the right army for you.

What chapter are these emblems for?
1)


2)


3)


4)
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/warha ... _Badge.png

If you DIDN'T respond 1) Soace Wolves, 2) Raptors, 3) Dark Angels, 4) Blood Angels, then you don't know iconography very well, or you're outright lying.

If you "get around" as a gamer, and are used to playing a LOT of different armies, You're going to look on the table, see Space Wolf models and presume it's Puppies. When you realize it isn't... it's too late. Your mind is going to keep with that association.

It's not that they CAN'T do it. It's just that it's an annoyance for their opponent.

Eric

1. Blood Wolves
2. Eagles
3. Dark Ravens

It's all a matter of perception.

[govannon]

Evil, the issue is that for Canon chapters the colors and iconagraphy IS part of WYSIWYG. That is what we are pointing out. Let me give you an example. We are both playing Space Marines, it is your turn and you have a unit of tacticals 11" away from a unit of my Tacticals. Now my Tacticals have Furious Charge. Do you: A) Stand there and double-tab or B) Move forward and Assualt? Now same situation but mine have Counter Attack. Now which do you do?

That is the concern. Your opponent has an expactation that certain units do certain things. This is the core of WYSIWYG. Now for Canon chapters, the fact that they are painted and modelled a certain way helps to reinforce the specific rules they follow, hence why it is part of WYSIWYG, especially in tournamnets when you are under a time crunch and often planning things out for multiple turns at once. Forcing your oponent to look at a Space Wolf mini and say "wait that isn't a Space Wolf, that is a Blood Angel so has a different set of rules I have to deal with" is really no different than saying "that Marine with a flamer, actually has a melta-gun so has a different set of rules that I have to deal with".

As far as the rule I was talking about, I did find GW's 2008 GT rule pack and the exact rule is "Traits may be used; if using a Chapter with traits defined in the Codex then those traits must be used" which being that it is talking about Codex Space Marines should be as official as your rule also talking about Codex Space Marine (as opposed to Codex Space Wolf or Codex Blood Angel which is what the OP was discussing) in regards to how a tournament would handle it.

I part that I made bold in your quote has nothing to do with colors or symbols on a miniature.

Sorry if anybody took offense to any of my posts. So the following is flame and insult free.

My opinion on the topic:
I am fine with it in any situation.
GW rules allow it.
Some tournaments don't because they make their own rules.
Most people will be ok with it. (from my experience)
Some will not be ok with it.
Nobody's mind will be changed here today.


George

[Stanislav]

From the beginning a lot of us have been saying that it is up to your opponent. However, to blatantly say it can't be done is a misnomer. Players should always be encouraged to use "count as" models; otherwise, you'll end up spending too much money while looking for the right army for you.

What chapter are these emblems for?
1)


2)


3)


4)
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/warha ... _Badge.png

If you DIDN'T respond 1) Soace Wolves, 2) Raptors, 3) Dark Angels, 4) Blood Angels, then you don't know iconography very well, or you're outright lying.

If you "get around" as a gamer, and are used to playing a LOT of different armies, You're going to look on the table, see Space Wolf models and presume it's Puppies. When you realize it isn't... it's too late. Your mind is going to keep with that association.

It's not that they CAN'T do it. It's just that it's an annoyance for their opponent.

Eric

1. Blood Wolves
2. Eagles
3. Dark Ravens

It's all a matter of perception.

As a former GW player, I got all of Eric's icons straight out. If Blood Wolves were a Successor Chapter of the Space Wolves...ok. Eagles, they are from Philadelphia. Dark Ravens, Baltimore on an overcast day.

If I was to play, and someone was to bring out a Space Wolves army, painted Space Wolf Grey or a close proximity on the color wheel, and say "Hey, these are Blood Angels". Yeah, I would have a problem in a tourney. Coming over to my house or on an open gaming night and wanting to try out the new BA codex with a Space Wolf army, no problem.

There is no moaning and complaining that "I don't have enough money to have all BA models". Tacs, assaults, even Devs now you can get dirt cheap. Paint them up in the official color or a Successor Chapters color scheme.

All of the Iconography is part of WYSIWYG. If you want to double dip, build it out of the generic bits and paint it in such a way that both armies can be played.

The game ain't cheap, places like this make it cheaper. If the fire's too hot, stay out of the kitchen. I ran many RTTs and even some of the Indy GTs. If someone showed up (at a tourney) with a Painted in all of it's glory SW army and said, "These are Blood Angels", I would walk him over to the rack and say, "I hope you have one of these Codex Space Wolves books, cause those aren't flying as Blood Angels." Call me a jerk, but over 90 RTTs and 3 Indy GTs as an organizer say that it was pretty accepted.

Like I said, for open gaming or in your basement, go for it. Just not in a tourney scene.

[wookieegunner]

As far as the rule I was talking about, I did find GW's 2008 GT rule pack and the exact rule is "Traits may be used; if using a Chapter with traits defined in the Codex then those traits must be used" which being that it is talking about Codex Space Marines should be as official as your rule also talking about Codex Space Marine (as opposed to Codex Space Wolf or Codex Blood Angel which is what the OP was discussing) in regards to how a tournament would handle it.

I part that I made bold in your quote has nothing to do with colors or symbols on a miniature.

Actually this part does have to do with the colors or symbols, since that is what denotes the Chapter you are playing and by extension what traits (in the Codex that was in effect in 2008) you had to use. Now don't get me wrong, in friendly play do what you want, I am mostly arguing from a tournament standpoint where the specifics need to be more clear. Also, you mentioned that GW rules allow it, could you please point to a rule in either the SW codex that allows you to use moels painted as Space Wolves as Blood Angels, in the BA Codex that says you can use Space Wolf models painted as Space Wolves for Blood Angels, or either codex that says you can use the List Creation rules from Codex Space Marines, becuase unfortunately, when it comes to Codexes, unless the one for your army specifically states to reference a different one, then using the rules out of a different one is a no-no even if it is Space Marine for a Space Wolf or Ork for a Space Wolf.

[Brian Adair]

If you ever watched Sienfeld- double dipping is not allowed. Personally, if people state color scheme matters/iconography I would say a generic SM chapter suffers the same fate as one of the founding chapters. I.e if your grey SM are painted grey but have no SW iconography on them, they are generic sm for the SM codex. Just because someone paints a bland paint scheme with as little effort as possible shouldn't give them the right their army as any codex. I could buy AoBR marines, spray paint them red, paint the eyes green, the bolters black and have my three colors and have a lack luster army in a week. I guess fluff also factors into it, personally, I like the fluff of 40k and enjoy reading it, but don't factor it in at all when I make a list. I pick the models I think are the coolest and make an army. Personally I chose the SW because of the background and their difference from other chapters and at the time (Before the new black templars sprues) they had the coolest sprues and models (then all the marine chapters got the individual upgrades).

Do any mods know what happened to my last post of about 6 hours ago, I posted here and have no post from that time. I don't think there was any flaming response that it would be deleted?

[Ironhide]

Don't see anything showing that a post by you was deleted. You sure it posted?

[EVIL INC]

WYSIWYG has nothing to do with the paint color (except for ork red paint jobs of course). When you read the rules, they specifically mention items of wargear and weapons. I have yet to see anyone provide a page number in the rulebook where it states that the color paint (except for ork red paint jobs) or symbols painted onto a model is wysiwyg. That is simply because that rule does not exist (beyond some select few house rules of which tourney rules on that matter are a part so are unofficial). However, I have provided the exact rule and page number that says you CAN do it. A rule that is being totally ignored. You cannot make up rules to add to the rulebook and delete others at whim and expect the rest of the world to follow along as is being tried here.
By saying that you cannot use space wolf models to represent a successor chapter of blood angels based on werewolves (and which would thus use the exact same iconography and symbols), you are saying that models need to be the exact ones specifically designed for the main chapter. You cant have it both ways. If you say that you cannot use non blood angel models for blood angels (such as space wolf models), you are essentially saying you have to use only blood angel models. When you start making exceptions, you contradict yourself. it is an either or situation.
mrrshann618, I can see your point to a degree. It can be hard to concentrate on your game. I myself have issues with simple pain. I am 6'11", a bad back and bad knees. After a short time, I am in literal pain. However, you cannot blame distrations for an inability to remember what army your opponent is using. They will not change lists halfway through the game. If they started the game as blood angels, they dont magically switch it up halfway through the game. If you forget, it is REALLY not that hard to ask for a reminder. I know I would not be afraid to if I were to lose track. GW gives a broad spectrum of "main" chapters. They are divergent for the fact of allowing for people to create their own successor chapters. I have accepted your challenge and see that none of the "core" chapters have the same symbols. I now challenge you to find where GW stated in print that successor chapters are not permitted to use symbols that match one of the main ones For example chapters based on wolves or vampires or monks. When you do, provide the page number in the rulebook.
wookieegunner, to answer your question, you as an opponent are required to tell me what army you are playing before the game starts. If I am unfamilier with the special rules of your chapter, I will ask. That means if your unit has furious charge or counterattack, I will know before the game even starts and act accordingly throughout the game as you are not allowed to change special abilities in the middle of the game. Also note that those special abilities are based on the codex you are using rather then the color paint you have on your models.
Any "expectation" as to what a model does is based on the codex being used and has not a single thing to do with the color paint on the models (except ork red paint jobs of course). That means the ENTIRE, "I get confused by seeing the models" or "I forget halfway through the game" and so forth arguments are empty and meaningless.

I have been playing GW games and wargaming since 1985. I know others have for longer but I believe I can safely say that I have "been around the block". In all of those years, I have played in a LARGE variety of places on the East Coast and played against opponents from across the nation and world. In those 25 years, I have met exactly 2 (yes, TWO) people in real life who would even consider calling foul on this. Both of them were rich kids (yes, I mean rich kids as in their parents would drop a thousand dollars to buy them an army at the draop of a hat one month and do it again the next. Both of them made it VERY clear that it was for elitism and to gain an advantage. One stopped playing GW games because they found that their attitude stopped him from playing games and the other was generous enough to buy people stuff to play against him because they would not otherwise.
Not a single tournament or store EVER stopped us from doing so (and that includes a fair amount of GW stores (usually the storeowners and GW employees are the most enthusiastic in terms of encouraging it.
In all of those years while only finding 2 who would disallow it, I have found hundreds who were enthusiatic about it , did it themselves or went so far as to offer more ideas and tips on being creative in this way. True, though the vast majority did not care one way or the other and was just happy that their opponent had a painted army and needed only to be informed once before the game started as to what was what and what codex was being used.
Look at my chaos army. I have word bearers icons, alpha legion icons and a wide variety of different stuff on them just because I think they look cool and not once has anyone EVER said boo to me about it. This, I believe goes to show that the internet bully concept in this regards has more then a little merit.

Edit: Ironhide, it may be they were posting at the same time as someone else and it got bumped. It just happened to me when you beat me by a short time. If someone posts in the time, you type up your post, they bump you and you have to hit submit again. Has happened to me a few times.

[MagickalMemories]

Lets try to avoid the personal attacks and flames. I am tired of seeing them and as I have not done it myself, it is annoying to see others do it.

As demonstrated in the post RIGHT ABOVE yours by Porkuslime, this comment is false.

Shape it up, or vacations will follow.

If you feel you need to argue these comments, take it up with Porkuslime, myself and/or Linrandir PRIVATELY, via PM.

Also, you should read other people's posts more closely.
Everyone who's saying "No" is giving their OPINION on how they FEEL about the OP's question:

My question to you as opponents both in basement games and competitive tourney games is if I painted up everything in SW colors (just get the Baal Predator Tops etc) would anyone have problems with me playing as "counts as" or for all intents and purposes would it be better to make an 1850 mech list for Blood Angels and be done with it?

Barring the RPJ example, nobody is saying he HAS to, and nobody is saying it's GW's rule. They are giving their opinions on it... just like you are.
Stop putting words in people's mouths and misrepresenting their statements to infer that they're saying something they're not (Evil Inc, that comment was directly at you... just so there's no misunderstanding).

So if, when I log in tomorrow, that BS is still up, I'm going to take it as a sign that admin isn't going to address the behavior displayed and that full-on flaming is acceptable. At that point, I'm going to light up this thread like you haven't seen in quite a while, because lord knows I've got a lot of stored up spleen to vent.

John, if you've got a problem with another member, PM an Admin or Mod, or report the post. Threatening us to address it "or else" really pisses me off. We try to give leeway to everyone, yourself included, and have - on NUMEROUS occasions. Don't be a hypocrite.

1. Blood Wolves
2. Eagles
3. Dark Ravens

It's all a matter of perception.

When I see codices or other GW licensed products for the chapters you named that use those icons, they will be acceptable responses.
Until then, please answer the question again. This time, your quest should be to answer the question using examples from only GW official materials. All responses should be chapters who (a) have an official codex or (b) have officially been named as the users of said iconography by GW or someone licensed by GW. THOSE are the answers I'm looking for.

Eric