MMO Accounts/Gold/Items...why?

[MagickalMemories]

You MAY find this to be picking on you.
I'm not. I'm trying to keep you from forcing me to ban you.

I do not however own my characters/accounts/items/gold etc etc... IN THE GAME. But if I didn't feel like playing the game anymore, I could sell MY CD KEY <----- Which I OWN, to someone who could then play the game(as long as they paid for the monthly fee of course)!

But again, where do we draw the line? I cannot advertise I am selling an MMO account, but I CAN sell my CDs/Game/CD KEY to someone... EVEN IF THAT CD KEY IS ATTACHED TO AN ONLINE ACCOUNT...

FWIW, by a strict reading of the rules (which is what we use in this case), that CD key is against the rules, as well.
Nothing directly or indirectly selling or trading MMO (and the like) items is allowed as trade goods.
The CLOSEST thing to an exception are cards for the WoW CMG that have IN and OUT OF game uses... and even THOSE are "ask permission first."
I know it's not directly covered in the current posted rules.
It WILL BE, though, once they're officially posted.

Eric

[Ironhide]

Just want to clarify, is he talking about the CD key itself, or CD key along with the CD?

[MagickalMemories]

Well, he specified "CD key."

Also, as long as someone's selling anything that will allow access to his/her account, he/she's in violation of the current rules:

Rule #11: MMORPG Accounts/Items/Currency Are Forbidden.
Do not post ads selling or soliciting MMORPG accounts, items, or currency. No Everquest, no Diablo 2, no Star Wars Galaxies, no World of Warcraft, or anything else in the multi-player online roleplaying game genre.
First time, a warning. Second, a suspension.

(Red emphasis mine)

In the future rules:

Rule #12: Digital paraphernalia (accounts, items, cards, etc) Are Not Acceptable Trade Goods.

Do not post ads selling or soliciting MMORPG accounts, items, or currency. No Everquest, no Diablo 2, no Star Wars Galaxies, no World of Warcraft, or anything else in the multi-player online roleplaying game genre. Do not think you are being clever by selling a CD and sticking a piece of paper with your account information in the package with it. That still counts as a violation and you will be banned if we find out about it.

(Red emphasis mine again)

Eric

[J35T3R.us]

Edit: <double post> sry


Edit #2: Hmmmm, was just thinking...

There are more "against the rules" thingies associated with the MMO universe than the 3 you have listed Magical. Accounts/Items/Currency are prolly the top 3, or 3 of the top 4 biggies. Online POWER LEVELING is another biggie. Might be more, that is the first thing that jumped out at me.


PS: Was just noting that perhaps that rule needs to be expanded a bit. Granted you don't see much trouble with that sort of thing on this website, but seeing how some of the other rules are explained very well, or gone in-depth on, might as well do the same with this. Maybe there is another trade website out there you can steal from? I'll look around and see if I can find the "MMO RULE" (<------ everyone has one) on one of my other trade sites and link it here.

[J35T3R.us]

You MAY find this to be picking on you.
I'm not. I'm trying to keep you from forcing me to ban you.

Ban me for what? Am I being disrespectful? Am I SELLING items mentioned here? Or am I sparking a debate which in the end could prolly save a LOT of hassle in the long run if this every actually comes up eh?

Just want to clarify, is he talking about the CD key itself, or CD key along with the CD?

In this case, I do not believe it matters. I've had 3 people in the past, when selling my older games to people through Craigslist or Ebay, ask just for the cd key and to keep the cds/bookets etc etc since they are not needed once you get the install(which a lot of manufacturers allow a free Internet download or other sites do).

FWIW, by a strict reading of the rules (which is what we use in this case), that CD key is against the rules, as well.

Selling a CD is not against the rules... It is the game itself. The CD is not the game, it only lets you install the game, you need the CD key to play it.

As long as the CD key is not advertising an Account, which there is NO POSSIBLE way of confirming an account, I do believe that is ok. It is the same as selling a Nintendo Pistol with duckhunt... Without the pistol, the game is unplayable.

Granted, there MAY OR MAY NOT be an account attached to the CD KEY(I will admit, most of them do), however that is not the reason a person(WHO IS FOLLOWING THE RULES) would buy that CD KEY. They would buy it to start their own account and play the game. IF THE CD KEY DOES HAVE AN ACCOUNT it IS AGAINST THE RULES. But as long as there is no advertising there is an account, no talking about the account, and no TRICKERY OR ANY SHADY STUFF going on, simply selling a COMPLETE Computer game with all original contents.... How is that against the rules?

I believe you are wrong Magical, by saying the CD KEY is against the rules. If there is an account in the trade(WHICH OBVIOUSLY SOMEWHERE THERE IS TALK ABOUT IT, no one is going to buy an account without knowing nothing about it), then yes it would be against the rules. However the CD KEY which you do OWN (you can even send the slip with the CD KEY on it into the game manufacturer if someone steals your account, or you lose it and want to reinstall the game, and they will send you another one since you are the rightful owner of the original key).

Correct me if I am wrong.

The CLOSEST thing to an exception are cards for the WoW CMG that have IN and OUT OF game uses... and even THOSE are "ask permission first."

[/quote][/quote]
Tell me how this even remotely falls through the cracks? It is a Material Items(aka a card), that you can use a CODE on that card to access an in game item/account/currency... HOW IS THIS DIFFERENT?!?!? Than me giving you the Computer Game(aka: the full game with all original contents, cd, booklets, cd key, maps, box, etc etc) that allows access to an online account/item/currency???

Would you have to sell these items as the CARD ONLY with ZERO talk or advertisement of the IN GAME item it allows access to?

Thats like saying the game I sell you has multiple uses, an offline single-player version and an online multi-player version that has virtual goods attached to it.


While I have quoted you a couple times, I am trying to not target you Magical. But you are a victim of your own success. You put some time and effort into you posts, which make them slightly more in-depth(sometimes MUCH more in-depth) than others, which makes your posts the easiest to read/comprehend/understand. You are a good guy, and I have much respect for you, but I cannot get past the "why" here! Why these rules have gray lines, allow somethings but not others, and are so ludicrous... Of course you saying: "It is against the rules." Is PLENTY fine for me(and anyone else). But I'm an American; "Just because," is not good enough for me. Well, ok, in this case is it... But I still wanted to sound all cool and put a nifty little tongue-in-cheek thingie at the end of my post!



Love ya!

[govannon]

Selling an account would technically be against the law. If you are selling something that you are not the legal owner of....would that not be fraud?
If not, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I would like to sell or trade for some Space Marines. PM me with offers!

Govannon

[porkuslime]

put a nifty little tongue-in-creek thingie at the end of my post!

Love ya!

Ummm.. ick. Not the creeks around here..

One of the biggest reasons those No MMO rules are out there (aside from trading things that are not "physical" and thus "real").. the contents are very hard to verify. Leads to a LOT of "he said X was present.. and it is actually Y" issues, which (over time) would most likely run up Bad Trade Reports etc... (in my opinion of course)..

What one trader offers is often not what his trade partner expects digitally..

I would be very interested to see what other clauses other forums use to regulate this area of trade/sale..

-Porkuslime

[MagickalMemories]

Selling an account would technically be against the law. If you are selling something that you are not the legal owner of....would that not be fraud?
If not, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I would like to sell or trade for some Space Marines. PM me with offers!

Govannon

(emphasis mine)

Gov, you've been here long enough to know the rules about trade ads in this forum.
I'm in a good mood, so I'm gonna let you off with a warning.
Next time, though, I'll have to give you a swirly and run your drawers up the flag pole!

You MAY find this to be picking on you.
I'm not. I'm trying to keep you from forcing me to ban you.

Ban me for what? Am I being disrespectful? Am I SELLING items mentioned here? Or am I sparking a debate which in the end could prolly save a LOT of hassle in the long run if this every actually comes up eh?

You missed the reference.

"I'm trying to keep you from forcing me to ban you," was in reference to the selling of items that are against the rules. Your previous post was about CD Keys and I was, essentially, advising against it and giving you the "why's" of it. The point of the sentence was that, if you make a trade for a CD Key (with attached account), and a staff member finds out about it, a ban WILL follow immediately. That's one of those "non-negotiable" consequences.
Multiple Accounts
ITL Abuse
MMO items
These are some of the rules that, if broken, will have a specific response from the site and, regardless of my OPINION of them, they're rules I have to follow to the "T." Some consequences give me leeway to decide what's appropriate. Not these.

Has nothing to do with being respectful or debating. Hope that clears it up.

FWIW, by a strict reading of the rules (which is what we use in this case), that CD key is against the rules, as well.

Selling a CD is not against the rules... It is the game itself. The CD is not the game, it only lets you install the game, you need the CD key to play it.

As long as the CD key is not advertising an Account, which there is NO POSSIBLE way of confirming an account, I do believe that is ok. It is the same as selling a Nintendo Pistol with duckhunt... Without the pistol, the game is unplayable.

Granted, there MAY OR MAY NOT be an account attached to the CD KEY(I will admit, most of them do), however that is not the reason a person(WHO IS FOLLOWING THE RULES) would buy that CD KEY. They would buy it to start their own account and play the game. IF THE CD KEY DOES HAVE AN ACCOUNT it IS AGAINST THE RULES. But as long as there is no advertising there is an account, no talking about the account, and no TRICKERY OR ANY SHADY STUFF going on, simply selling a COMPLETE Computer game with all original contents.... How is that against the rules?

I believe you are wrong Magical, by saying the CD KEY is against the rules. If there is an account in the trade(WHICH OBVIOUSLY SOMEWHERE THERE IS TALK ABOUT IT, no one is going to buy an account without knowing nothing about it), then yes it would be against the rules. However the CD KEY which you do OWN (you can even send the slip with the CD KEY on it into the game manufacturer if someone steals your account, or you lose it and want to reinstall the game, and they will send you another one since you are the rightful owner of the original key).

Correct me if I am wrong.

Let me clarify for you.
If you sell a CD key... or sell a CD and throw the key in "for free" or "accidentally," etc... or include a CD key in any trade for any reason that is attached to an online account and it comes to the attention of the staff, you will be banned. I use "you" in the general sense, not the specific.
The reasoning is simple: you are providing, as part of a trade or sale, "merchandise" which the game manufacturer has specifically prohibited you from selling.
You (specific, not general) have said, "however that is not the reason a person(WHO IS FOLLOWING THE RULES) would buy that CD KEY."
The thing is, though, we are not talking about the one buying it. We're talking about the guy selling/trading them away. The SELLER knows that there's an account attached. As it was his responsibility to RTFR before posting, he is believed to know it is against the rules. As such, he will be treated accordingly. Even if he didn't RTFR as he was supposed to... ignorance of the rules is no defense. KWIM?

If Jim and I enter into a trade. I send him some DDM and he sends me a "fully functional" copy of WoW, that's fine. If it turns out that the CD Key he sent is attached to an online account, he has broken the rules and will be banned if an Administrator finds out (which, in this case, one WOULD... as I am an Admin LOL).

That clear up what I was talking about?

The CLOSEST thing to an exception are cards for the WoW CMG that have IN and OUT OF game uses... and even THOSE are "ask permission first."

Tell me how this even remotely falls through the cracks? It is a Material Items(aka a card), that you can use a CODE on that card to access an in game item/account/currency... HOW IS THIS DIFFERENT?!?!? Than me giving you the Computer Game(aka: the full game with all original contents, cd, booklets, cd key, maps, box, etc etc) that allows access to an online account/item/currency???

Would you have to sell these items as the CARD ONLY with ZERO talk or advertisement of the IN GAME item it allows access to?

Thats like saying the game I sell you has multiple uses, an offline single-player version and an online multi-player version that has virtual goods attached to it.

As each item would be on a case-by-case basis, I can't tell you -specifically- what is allowed of not. What I CAN tell you is that the ONE card that was allowed was a card for an in-game (CMG) magic item. It also had a scratch off section with a code under it. Entering the code online, apparently, gave your MMO Character the item, as well. the code was unscratched and unused. The user was selling a physical item (card) that had a legitimate use outside the MMO. If he was only trying to sell the code (transmitted via PM, email, telephone, telegraph, walkie-talkie, singing telegram, carrier pigeon, snail mail or any other unlisted method), it would not have been allowed.
It was made known, up front, what the details on the card were.

While I have quoted you a couple times, I am trying to not target you Magical. But you are a victim of your own success. You put some time and effort into you posts, which make them slightly more in-depth(sometimes MUCH more in-depth) than others, which makes your posts the easiest to read/comprehend/understand. You are a good guy, and I have much respect for you, but I cannot get past the "why" here! Why these rules have gray lines, allow somethings but not others, and are so ludicrous... Of course you saying: "It is against the rules." Is PLENTY fine for me(and anyone else). But I'm an American; "Just because," is not good enough for me. Well, ok, in this case is it... But I still wanted to sound all cool and put a nifty little tongue-in-creek thingie at the end of my post!

I'm verbose for clarity. My post count makes me a high profile target. It's all good. Here's the deal... I'm totally cool with somene asking questions of me about what I post. It's a search for information.
"Questioning me" and what I post, as in questioning my intent or integrity (which I'm NOT taking your posts as) is when my annoyance factor rises.

I still don't see where you're seeing the rule as having a gray line. It all seems pretty cut & dried to me. Aside from the card, what MMO item(s) ARE we allowing, when there are things we're NOT? Which part is ludicrous?

The emboldened part of the quote above is the only part I have a "problem" with, and that's only because I see nothing to support the "gray" claim, and I don't see anything that's ludicrous.

Eric

[Ironhide]

Someone school me, when did CD keys become attached to online content? It has always been my belief that the CD key was there as a verification tool that you bought the game legally. Does the CD Key now have the customers username and password as well as all his characters info on it? I thought that info was kept online? If you trade/sell a guy the whole computer game box contents it came with (unaltered), wouldn't it be the same as getting a used game from a store?

[MagickalMemories]

Well, FWIW, I don't play MMO's.

I was strictly basing my statements off of what jester said:

I do not however own my characters/accounts/items/gold etc etc... IN THE GAME. But if I didn't feel like playing the game anymore, I could sell MY CD KEY <----- Which I OWN, to someone who could then play the game(as long as they paid for the monthly fee of course)!

But again, where do we draw the line? I cannot advertise I am selling an MMO account, but I CAN sell my CDs/Game/CD KEY to someone... EVEN IF THAT CD KEY IS ATTACHED TO AN ONLINE ACCOUNT...

Where do we draw the line?

According to Ebay(I've actually sent them an e-mail). You is ALLOWED to sell your Game CD-KEY as long as you do NOT advertise that CD-KEY is attached to an online account. Even mentioning you have an account tied to it is grounds for them to delete your auction.

..especially the emboldened words.


Eric

[J35T3R.us]

Someone school me, when did CD keys become attached to online content? It has always been my belief that the CD key was there as a verification tool that you bought the game legally. Does the CD Key now have the customers username and password as well as all his characters info on it? I thought that info was kept online? If you trade/sell a guy the whole computer game box contents it came with (unaltered), wouldn't it be the same as getting a used game from a store?

Yes and no. CD Keys for MMOs are attached to your online account and not your offline computer game. The game doesn't matter anymore since most companies offer a free down load of their game or you can just use someone else's CD to install the game. While MOST single-player computer games still make you input your CD KEY as PART of the installation, MMOs these days do not allow you to input your key until you sign up online and make an account. Simply put, I highly doubt MMO companies care about their physical game((since they don't require the CD to be in the tray when playing), I don't even know where my WoW CDs are...), I believe their main focus is attaching the Key to your online account so you must buy another CD Key to play another account instead of simply reinstalling the game. They are a tricky bunch they are!!!

One of the biggest reasons those No MMO rules are out there (aside from trading things that are not "physical" and thus "real").. the contents are very hard to verify. Leads to a LOT of "he said X was present.. and it is actually Y" issues, which (over time) would most likely run up Bad Trade Reports etc... (in my opinion of course)..

What one trader offers is often not what his trade partner expects digitally..

I would be very interested to see what other clauses other forums use to regulate this area of trade/sale..

-Porkuslime

Thats one way to look at it.

Perhaps most trade sites do not allow these things because they are online-fake items and cannot be proven or whatever... But then... I have to bring up the next issue. TWO trade sites I use allow the selling/trading of Magic: the Gathering ONLINE cards and TICKETS(in game currency). You are allowed to trade real life cash for virtual cards with people. Buy virtual MTGO currency for real life cash, or trade for it, etc etc...

I would hate to be the one who decides which games are allowed and which aren't.

The magic card trade site I use relocated their rule set, I seem to remember a rule clause with MMO stuff but cannot locate that now. Sorry I have failed you Pork...

Let me clarify for you.
If you sell a CD key... or sell a CD and throw the key in "for free" or "accidentally," etc... or include a CD key in any trade for any reason that is attached to an online account and it comes to the attention of the staff, you will be banned. I use "you" in the general sense, not the specific.
The reasoning is simple: you are providing, as part of a trade or sale, "merchandise" which the game manufacturer has specifically prohibited you from selling.
You (specific, not general) have said, "however that is not the reason a person(WHO IS FOLLOWING THE RULES) would buy that CD KEY."
The thing is, though, we are not talking about the one buying it. We're talking about the guy selling/trading them away. The SELLER knows that there's an account attached. As it was his responsibility to RTFR before posting, he is believed to know it is against the rules. As such, he will be treated accordingly. Even if he didn't RTFR as he was supposed to... ignorance of the rules is no defense. KWIM?

If Jim and I enter into a trade. I send him some DDM and he sends me a "fully functional" copy of WoW, that's fine. If it turns out that the CD Key he sent is attached to an online account, he has broken the rules and will be banned if an Administrator finds out (which, in this case, one WOULD... as I am an Admin LOL).

That clear up what I was talking about?

Just to clarify (so people are not scared of selling their old games), everything you've put up there is based on the ACCOUNT and not the CD-KEY. I understand everything about the accounts and stuff, but want to make it clear you are allowed to sell your game(with all the original contents it came with), including your CD-KEY. If there is an account attached to that CD KEY(unless empty? How does that work???)****, then you are breaking the rules.

****Most games will not allow you to unattach your CD key from your account, however, you can wipe your account. Is this another gray lines I've tried to bring up? Is an account with NO characters, NO gold, NO nothing... Just a blank login, waiting for you to create your first character and jump into the Online World against the rules? I'm pretty sure that asking a Mod if you could sell a blank account CD-Key would be fine.

As each item would be on a case-by-case basis, I can't tell you -specifically- what is allowed of not. What I CAN tell you is that the ONE card that was allowed was a card for an in-game (CMG) magic item. It also had a scratch off section with a code under it. Entering the code online, apparently, gave your MMO Character the item, as well. the code was unscratched and unused. The user was selling a physical item (card) that had a legitimate use outside the MMO. If he was only trying to sell the code (transmitted via PM, email, telephone, telegraph, walkie-talkie, singing telegram, carrier pigeon, snail mail or any other unlisted method), it would not have been allowed.
It was made known, up front, what the details on the card were.

I know exactly what a Spectral Tiger Loot card is. I must reiterate for you though... The card is a card you can use in your WoW CCG deck and play with it, while the code on it allows access to an in game item ONLINE. You own the card, but not the in game online item. Would you have to advertise this card as NOTHING ELSE except the Spectral Tiger CCG card(which is terrible mind you), and say NOTHING about a code that allows access to the in game item? Even though that wouldn't matter because the person who buys it or trades for it would get it and see there is a Key on it that he could use to get something online.

How is this different than a Computer game, which you can play on your own, and a cd-key provided with the game that allows access to an online account with characters and items ONLINE.

In both cases you OWN the game/card and in both cases there is an OPTIONAL "key" that allows access to an online item(s) you do NOT OWN.

the ONE card that was allowed was a card for an in-game (CMG) magic item.

The in-game item is not a CCG (ccg > cmg) magic item. It is an actual World of Warcraft item that doesn't have anything to do with the card game. I brought this up not to correct you, but to further enhance my question of how some MMO "thingies" are allowed while others are not.

Just want to clarify this...

I still don't see where you're seeing the rule as having a gray line.

While there may be no gray line in the rules. I do see potential problems regarding the following:
-The "loot cards" like the Tiger card above. You've even said case by case basis, which means some may be allowed, some may not be allowed.
-Selling a CD-KEY with an account attached to it that is empty/blank/useless. I donno if this is gray since it is most likely allowed, but then, it is still an online account.

I'm verbose for clarity. My post count makes me a high profile target. It's all good. Here's the deal... I'm totally cool with somene asking questions of me about what I post. It's a search for information.
"Questioning me" and what I post, as in questioning my intent or integrity (which I'm NOT taking your posts as) is when my annoyance factor rises.

That bolded part I agree on. Your post count matters little to me. You're a target because you actually take the time to reply, sometimes MORE IN DEPTH than the original poster you are replying to.

Thanks for your patience.

-Retsej


PS: What is RTFR and KWIM and DDM and CMG? The only one I can guess by looking at the way you are using it is CMG? Collectible M??? Game? Mini game? I donno... The WoW card game is a CCG or a TCG <--- heated debate about that one. Collectible Card Game or Trade able Card Game, CCG is winning the debates however since the phrase "trade able" is either A) redundant, or B) obvious and not needed.

[Crestion du Sable]

RTFR = Read the F&^king Rules
KWIM = Know What I Mean
CMG = Collectable Mini Game
DDM = Dungeons and Dragons Minis

[MagickalMemories]

FWIW... For What it's Worth... I used "RTFR" as a faster way to type Read The Rules.
I thought more people would know what I meant with RTFR than RTR. LOL

Let me clarify for you.
If you sell a CD key... or sell a CD and throw the key in "for free" or "accidentally," etc... or include a CD key in any trade for any reason that is attached to an online account and it comes to the attention of the staff, you will be banned. I use "you" in the general sense, not the specific.
The reasoning is simple: you are providing, as part of a trade or sale, "merchandise" which the game manufacturer has specifically prohibited you from selling.
You (specific, not general) have said, "however that is not the reason a person(WHO IS FOLLOWING THE RULES) would buy that CD KEY."
The thing is, though, we are not talking about the one buying it. We're talking about the guy selling/trading them away. The SELLER knows that there's an account attached. As it was his responsibility to RTFR before posting, he is believed to know it is against the rules. As such, he will be treated accordingly. Even if he didn't RTFR as he was supposed to... ignorance of the rules is no defense. KWIM?

If Jim and I enter into a trade. I send him some DDM and he sends me a "fully functional" copy of WoW, that's fine. If it turns out that the CD Key he sent is attached to an online account, he has broken the rules and will be banned if an Administrator finds out (which, in this case, one WOULD... as I am an Admin LOL).

That clear up what I was talking about?

Just to clarify (so people are not scared of selling their old games), everything you've put up there is based on the ACCOUNT and not the CD-KEY. I understand everything about the accounts and stuff, but want to make it clear you are allowed to sell your game(with all the original contents it came with), including your CD-KEY. If there is an account attached to that CD KEY(unless empty? How does that work???)****, then you are breaking the rules.

****Most games will not allow you to unattach your CD key from your account, however, you can wipe your account. Is this another gray lines I've tried to bring up? Is an account with NO characters, NO gold, NO nothing... Just a blank login, waiting for you to create your first character and jump into the Online World against the rules? I'm pretty sure that asking a Mod if you could sell a blank account CD-Key would be fine.

Re: BOLD
I read the rules, and it seems pretty clear to me that this is precisely what we mean. No MMORPG items, etc. Nowhere do we talk about the software itself.

Re: BOLD Underlined
Exactly.
"I just got this WoW game from my Aunt for Christmas, but i don't play MMORPG's. Wanna buy it?" is absolutely fine.
"I'm tired of WoW. Everything's just too easy to beat. Wanna buy my CD? I'll throw the CD-key in for free." is probably NOT fine, as it implies that there is an attached account.

Re: italics

That would have to be handled on a case by case basis. If it WAS allowed and turned out that (a) there was still ANYTHING attached to the CD Key (character, gold, etc) or that the character (gold, etc.) was in ANY way retrievable... Well, we'd follow the appropriate consequences in that instance.

As each item would be on a case-by-case basis, I can't tell you -specifically- what is allowed of not. What I CAN tell you is that the ONE card that was allowed was a card for an in-game (CMG) magic item. It also had a scratch off section with a code under it. Entering the code online, apparently, gave your MMO Character the item, as well. the code was unscratched and unused. The user was selling a physical item (card) that had a legitimate use outside the MMO. If he was only trying to sell the code (transmitted via PM, email, telephone, telegraph, walkie-talkie, singing telegram, carrier pigeon, snail mail or any other unlisted method), it would not have been allowed.
It was made known, up front, what the details on the card were.

I know exactly what a Spectral Tiger Loot card is. I must reiterate for you though... The card is a card you can use in your WoW CCG deck and play with it, while the code on it allows access to an in game item ONLINE. You own the card, but not the in game online item. Would you have to advertise this card as NOTHING ELSE except the Spectral Tiger CCG card(which is terrible mind you), and say NOTHING about a code that allows access to the in game item? Even though that wouldn't matter because the person who buys it or trades for it would get it and see there is a Key on it that he could use to get something online.

How is this different than a Computer game, which you can play on your own, and a cd-key provided with the game that allows access to an online account with characters and items ONLINE.

In both cases you OWN the game/card and in both cases there is an OPTIONAL "key" that allows access to an online item(s) you do NOT OWN.

When I said, "in-game (CMG) magic item," the (CMG) was referring to the fact that i meant the item was for "in-game" on the CMG game. Not the MMORPG. I thought it was used as part of the CMG, not the CCG. having never played ANY WoW game, I was previously unaware that there even EXISTED a CCG.

As for how to advertise it... presuming permission was given... you could clearly advertise BOTH functions of the card, provided (a) the CODE was unused and (b) the physical card was changing possession with the intent of it being on a permanent basis (meaning, no sending it to the guy, he uses the code, then returns the card).

That clear it up?

the ONE card that was allowed was a card for an in-game (CMG) magic item.

The in-game item is not a CCG (ccg > cmg) magic item. It is an actual World of Warcraft item that doesn't have anything to do with the card game. I brought this up not to correct you, but to further enhance my question of how some MMO "thingies" are allowed while others are not.

Hopefully, this was addressed well enough above.

Just want to clarify this...

I still don't see where you're seeing the rule as having a gray line.

While there may be no gray line in the rules. I do see potential problems regarding the following:
-The "loot cards" like the Tiger card above. You've even said case by case basis, which means some may be allowed, some may not be allowed.
-Selling a CD-KEY with an account attached to it that is empty/blank/useless. I donno if this is gray since it is most likely allowed, but then, it is still an online account.

Loot Cards are more than likely going to get approval each time, provided we (staff AND "seller") are clear on precisely HOW the trade is going to be worked.*

Selling a "blank" key would have to be case-by-case AT BEST.*


*Subject to Lin's approval. This is his domain.

I'm verbose for clarity. My post count makes me a high profile target. It's all good. Here's the deal... I'm totally cool with somene asking questions of me about what I post. It's a search for information.
"Questioning me" and what I post, as in questioning my intent or integrity (which I'm NOT taking your posts as) is when my annoyance factor rises.

That bolded part I agree on. Your post count matters little to me. You're a target because you actually take the time to reply, sometimes MORE IN DEPTH than the original poster you are replying to.

Thanks for your patience.

-Retsej

Re: Bold
That's why they gave me the big red shiny "Admin" text. LOL

PS: What is RTFR and KWIM and DDM and CMG? The only one I can guess by looking at the way you are using it is CMG? Collectible M??? Game? Mini game? I donno... The WoW card game is a CCG or a TCG <--- heated debate about that one. Collectible Card Game or Trade able Card Game, CCG is winning the debates however since the phrase "trade able" is either A) redundant, or B) obvious and not needed.

So, I think this was handled well enough above not to clarify. FWIW, though... I think (WARNING: OPINION ALERT) that anyone bothering to waste time debating whether something's a TCG or CCG needs to get a life.


Eric

[NuWishA]

Ok so.

You can't Sell MMO accounts and Items. Its against the rules of the EULA for most companies. Its also easy to scam, much more than with physical goods. Selling just your "time" is the same thing. Your "time" is not a physical good.

Why is this three pages again?

[J35T3R.us]

Ok so.

You can't Sell MMO accounts and Items. Its against the rules of the EULA for most companies. Its also easy to scam, much more than with physical goods. Selling just your "time" is the same thing. Your "time" is not a physical good.

Why is this three pages again?

Because some people keep repeating what others have said many times over?

"Selling your 'time' is the same thing" as what??? As scamming? Against EULAs? I don't understand what you mean by that. Are you saying that selling my time is against the rules? And if you offered to pay me $20 to paint your Space Marine Terminator captain, using your paints and brushes and model, but using my time and talent?

If selling your time is against rules, why are painting businesses in business? Why are lawn-care companies in business? Why do we have 3rd party trade services available? Why do we pay advisers to advise us? Everything comes down to time and effort.

I also have to disagree with the easier to scam statement. It is not as easy to scan as material goods because the market is much smaller. If it was a larger market I completely agree. But since it is such a small niche, the thieves are not as rampant as material ones (Pirates, bootleggers, thieves, scammers, conmen, lawyers, etc etc ;p) so there is much less to be worried about. I think in the end, stand alone, the potential to scam might be greater (but even than I'd still have to point out the sheer LACK OF online services compared to Material services), but currently is not.


Back on track?

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with most of the things said in this forum. However, it is 3 pages long because me and MM like to type books, people continue to repeat what other people have said (maybe because they don't read the whole thread, or think this is the "cool" place to hang out and want to be part of it or something), and because sometimes simply stating something is wrong does not fulfill the original question of why so longer, more in depth (and more quantity) posts are required.

I've personally already stated it is against the rules HERE and against the EULAs of the game companies. That was in my original post I think. My post was "why." MM and a couple others did a good job in explaining why they thought things were. But it all comes down to the simple fact that since it against the rules someplace, somewhere, it is against the rules here. That is fair. No stepping on anyone's toes...