WYSIWYG Help.

[EZ mac]

q: does taking 'wings' classify a model as 'jump infantry'
A: No, it simply allows the model to move like jump infantry. Note that the model must actually be converted to have a pair of wings rather then a jump pack.

that's from the CSM FAQ, note that it says nothing about any specific model just the category 'wings'

Wow, that's just stupid. I can't believe GW actually said JPs can't be used to represent for Wings.
All the better that I don't have to deal with GW "official" nonsense.

Uh huh... And I honostly want to know if it works the the oposite way also... Jpack models no wings. I'm woundering because I want to use the possessed wings on dco because it will look cool next to the angel wings of the othe ba stuff.

This is one of those rules I just ignore flat out. If they try and push for conversions like it seems like they do then they should let u go hog wild and have no restrictions.

@stanislav: sorry dude thought u kinda just read the first post and was bashing me (the TO) without reading my motives. But I suck at reading anything past rule books so I really shouldn't be surprised.... I thought u ment that because I was being a jerk and dictating with a iron hammer that he should not come back to my store, which is what kinda made me pissy.


Oh and if anyone out here is ever near Monterey (pebble beach, the Monterey bay aquarium, cannery row, laguna seca, or the defense navel institute (DLI)) pm me and I'll send u out hole in the wall store address.

[MagickalMemories]

He speaks the truth. As with so many vanues in today's society, the one in charge is always "right", even if they are wrong because they are the ones with the power. Go with the flow man, go with the flow.

He's right. Sadly, it's just the way of the world. Always has been, really.
The ones in charge make the rules. Like them or not, they're the rules. You have to follow them if you want to play in their sandbox (tourney).
Sometimes, it seems "wrong," but there's usually something that has happened in the past to make it that way.

You want to play a DP without a visible flight ability. In the past, people who have proxied models that don't follow WYSIWYG have caused in game confusion. Thus, the visible flight ability becomes a necessity.

Well, if it comes down to that, just go to the dollar store and buy a $1.00 bag of toy bugs and cut a pair of wings off of one of the flies or something. paint them and greenstuff it to the back.

The man speaks wisdom again.
You could even do 1 better and Elmer's glue or blue-tac them on. Both are far less permanent than greenstuff!
Use tiny little wings, just to make EZ squirm! LOL


Eric

[EZ mac]

oh yeah ill squirm... how? i did gargoyle wings on my first nurgle daemonic stature daemon prince and loved it.

my current ones have balrog wings.... best wings ever. except the pair take a whole 4inch sabol foam layer to move safely

[EVIL INC]

LOL, Make a pair out of scotch tape and tape them on. HA beat that.
Personally, I switch my army list up for every game as I get bored with a static list and my mood swings. However, with my disability, I find myself focusing on the one aspect of the model to the point where it is hard to look away until I have finagled a way to make it work. It wont let me just accept something that is wrong. So what I do is sculpt or attach something that I can use to represent the flight ability that when I don't buy "wings", becomes just decoration. Thats how it works with autism (yeah yeah, waiting for the hate posts against us mentally handicapped people. let her rip, I've gotten used to it here) Most people in for fun games really dont mind even if you just use the "he levitates through warp magic" reasoning. After all, when he is the only GD on the table and the one in the list has "wings", it HAS to be him. players have no problems with it.
When you get into a competative setting (especially one as hard nosed as ard boyz), people want the edge and will nitpick at anything to get ahead or an unfair advantage over an opponant. It is an aspect of human nature that not many of us can overcome. Thats why they HAVE to have an exact set of rules that are strictly enforced. As MM pointed out, there must have been someone in the past who complained about something like that so they had to address it. Not because they want to limit you in your creativity but to oil the squeeky wheel so they dont ruin EVERYONE's fun at the tourney by raising a stink. EZ is right to enforce it. Until he quoted the exact wording, I did not even know it was an official rule.

[The_Black_Clover]

Just to reiterate, it's not like me and EZ had a huge argument about this or anything. I told him when I first made this thread that I understood he was the TO and his ruling would stand. The only reason I brought it up here is that, being in the military, I move around alot. That being the case, it brought up two important points; 1) I just don't like the wings on that model & 2) I'd seen EZ's DPs and I honestly didn't want a single model to take so much room when packed up. (Hell, that's mainly the reason why I play Daemons, no armor [of course I say that as I finish putting together my first chimera, /facepalm ]). Any way, back to the point, I just wanted to get a feel around of those world wide to see if it seemed everywhere I went I would need actual wings before I convert a model I all ready like.

[mrrshann618]

Evil is simply continuing a discussion that was ended a while ago.

As for the "wings" factor it is generally good form to have some "easy to identify" way to represent a power. That does not mean that it has to be reflective of the actual item. I'm saying it this way becuase I've seen an Eldar Autarch with a "Blazing Sword" Basically it was a Power weapon and a fushion gun mixed together. The Sword is modeled in such a fashion that there are flames up and down the blade. The justification given is that the sword is capable of a very short range "molten blast". For those of you who have played long enough think of the old Avatar spewing molten lava. Since the sword is sufficiently modled to represent an item that is definately not just a painted sword, and shows that the item is of significant power it has been accepted.

So Back to the wings thing. In my opinnion your "wings" could represent whatever faction of god that you wanted. For example if you were a follower of Tzneetch I'd accept wings or even a DP on a disk or some such. Nurgle, Fly wings work for wings or you could do any of the petilence cloud items offered before. Heck I'd accept you wrapping a bunch of cotton that is painted in a appropriate fashion around their legs. It is something that is definately pointing that something is up and that there is nothing hidden that is easy to forget in a stressful situation.

If you are going to go the route of "he levitates" you have to show something that will represent the levitation so that others can easily see it. There are passages everywhere stating WYSIWYG in the various codex, MRB, and White Dwarves articles about modling. As long as you can represent a power in some fashion, even if it is removable, then your good. This generally has nothing to do with "wanting an edge" or being a jerk, it is entirely about sportsmanship. The game is designed around the models, the models are designed to be easily identifyable, thus it is simply courtesy to allow others to be able to easily identify any powers, wargear, or upgrades to a character without them being extremely dificult to find.

[EVIL INC]

No idea what "discussion" you think I am continueing. We are discussing the one brought up by the O.P. in this thread concerning wings and the ard boyz tourney.
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. The game is about fun and sportsmanship rather then trying to get an edge or win at all costs. That is why I have been suggesting using something that lets you represent the "flight" ability that is easily identified for reguler games without them having to be actual "wings".
However, as has been pointed out and what we are actually discussing (and have been throughout) is that the exact wording of the rules for the ardboyz tourney is that they have to be actual wings and that GW will not allow jump packs to represent them or tzeentch discs or anything like that, in this particuler situation we are discussing, they have to be actual wings. When it is spelled out like that in black and white in the rules of a tourney, you have to do as the "man" says or not participate.

[The_Black_Clover]

I'm confused now evil no one said you where carrying a discussion and it seems you thought me to be negative, I was referring to the connotations that seemed to be around that me and EZ where nerd warring over this or something. But beside that to actually address what you said. Firstly it is not in black and white the rule "They must be wings!" is from a CSM FAQ not the Dæmonic codex and it is not like I am trying to be beardy about it. There are a ton of differences between the CSM codex and the Dæmon codex as EZ can attest from the last time we played. lol.

[EZ mac]

Ok so here is my interpretation... Because gw loves black and white rules... Yeah right lol

"wings" must be wings not jump packs... Tho jet packs, jet bikes, magic carpets, jump feet (can be jet pack wannabes) are NOT jump packs as jump packs have a specific classification.. Think 'jumpious packious'for u Latin nerds... Everything that is not a "jump pack" is cool as this rule says what it can't be... A jump pack but must be wings but if the model does not have "jumpious packious" but instead something that represents wings it's all good.

And the codex chaos space marines entry on wings affect ALL 'wing' models as it classifies wings into a classification into a subgroup of infantry/unit/monsterous ceature... Also known as a "wingious Maximus" (winged monsterous creature) for the daemon price with wings, winged hive tyrant or anything with wings. So yes the FAQ affects accross the 40k universe, and even the warp for chaos daemons, this is because of the lack of entry name as it says 'a model with X'not a 'Y with Z" Because Y is in reference to Z.

Also the only reason I care is because of the shinanigans of the 2008 DoC winner of ard boys and how I want to ensure at least from my store that we will not bend the rules of Ard boyz but instead will follow all100%.

Any other tournament I could give a f as long as "clover" would explain why his winged infantry monsterous creAture was based normally without wings but can move 'from his psycic powers...". Strait up,explain it and in any other setting ur golden.

I honostly just DO not want to deal with the SEMI or finalist judges who will look at me (in the highly unlikly chance anyone from my lgs will get there) and ask me why 'clover'doesnt have a good conversion on his monsterous jumpacious model.

But yeah this thread is going Off topic can we close it mm so we don't sound or say anything stupider then what someone (me) has said.

Thanks anyone involved in the discussion and unless your TO plans on following the ARd boYz rules for all models lke I, then I think we are done talking about this and are infact starting a arguing thread about rules (or lack of...) in a fiction setting game.

[Dakkar98]

Op's discussion on this topic appear's to be finished.
Locking Topic.
If the OP wishes he may PM the staff to have it reopened.

-Dakkar