Trade problem... a deal is a deal? What do you think?

[GreatWolf]

I would like to know, but you don't have to tell, did you explain what "used" means to this trader? I've received bits that were new on sprue, but were primed black, so they could be considered used.

If I missed the part where you explained exactly what it was, then I apologize in advance.

.

Yes, I remember when he asked me I told him that they (the ships) were not only painted, but what damaged parts they had. I dont like to have surprises when I get something (though granted, there almost always is to some extent) and so I aim to make sure that there are no surprises fro my trading partner.

I reminded him .. well.. here is a piece of the converstation from sunday:

[----] 11:52 am: anyway, I caught a glance in the box before I had to leave for GD Chicago, and I wasn't exactly happy seeing that they weren't new on sprue (which was the worst condition I was expecting).

[GreatWolf] 11:53 am: not sure what you mean

[----] 11:56 am: What I'm trying to say is I was expecting NIB or just opened

[GreatWolf] 11:57 am: Why did you expect them to be new? When you asked me about thier condition I told you. And in my ad it states that they are used.

[----] 12:00 pm: I was expecting that because I never saw anything that said otherwise, and I didn't consider used to mean painted

[GreatWolf] 12:01 pm: Yeah, I remember you asking me about them, either here or in a pm. And I told you their condition.
[GreatWolf] 12:01 pm: I wouldnt have tried to cover that up
[GreatWolf] 12:02 pm: I dont like surprises, and so I try to make sure my trading partner doesnt get any either
[GreatWolf] 12:02 pm: I am sorry that they didnt turn out to be what you expected though man

[----] 12:04 pm: I don't like surprises either, and I got two with this. As is, I don't know what to do with them, as they're not nearly worth what I said I'd give for them before I gave the thumbs up to ship


Now also remember, he tried to back out of this deal before this. After we had made the agreement. But I had already shipped my part of the deal.

He said; "the main reason I was after the BFG set is gone. As of right now, unless I can find a replacement fleet for the one I thought I was getting [a Forgeworld Tau Fleet] having a few random ships/the rules aren't worth very much to me."

But when I told him that they had already been shipped, he said that was fine and that he would send them out the next day. Well, he apparently waited until he reieved the stuff I sent him, and then had this new problem of them not being what he expected.

[Datadep5]

Hmm... alrighty then. Sounds like your trader made them out to be better than you had explained. Their fault then.

Still a bit confused as to why this person opened up the box after backing out of the deal and agreeing to send the stuff back; only to complain about the condition.

Thanks for the quick reply.

[flagg07]

Very nice of you to take the time to make this thread and give him an opportunity to save his reputation.

I suggest you post a BTR with ALL of the info you have saved and leave a negative feedback regardless of how this pans out for you.

Yes, regardless if you get your stuff back, including your shipping fees. WHY!? some will cry, he's not out anything... Because this was obviously a bad trade. Others should be warned of this traders actions. I certainly wouldn't appreciate some BS like this happening to me and would like knowing when a trader has done some squirrely *edit* in the past.

Not to beat a dead horse, BUT...
Most of us can probably remember a certain advertiser here who had a certain store that did a bunch of trades and then totally flaked out. Had 1/2 the people he robbed followed through and left the NEGATIVE FEEDBACK he deserved, I am confident that he could have been nipped before many other people got scammed.

I have no idea who your trader is and do not mean to imply that he is on the same level as the scumbag I spoke of above, BUT I think you should do your part to keep Bartertown safe.

[insidius]

The thing with Bartertown is that a deal is defined differently depending on who you ask. I would suggest outlining all of your trading terms in your ad in the future to avoid situations like these.

For example, in my ads I often say that I offer a guarantee for my 'used' items. If the person trading for them does not like the for whatever reason, they may send them back to me in the condition I sent them out in for a full refund (whether that be trade items or money) within a certain amount of time (usually a week). I just think it's a nice way to make sure a deal goes smoothly and allows for someone changing their minds.

If you want to set restrictions on your trades, make sure you outline them BEFORE the deal is struck. Put them in your ad. I see nothing wrong with someone changing their mind after a deal is made as long as there's nothing saying it's not kosher beforehand. We've all received items that, when we opened the box, we just said "This isn't what I expected at all." If you don't want this to happen, make a proviso stating all items are nonrefundable and as is. Then, if they try to pull the mind change on you, you have justification to not allow it. Of course, you're probably going to have to provide good pics and descriptions of your items, but that's the way the ball rolls.

[ancientsociety]

If you want to set restrictions on your trades, make sure you outline them BEFORE the deal is struck. Put them in your ad. I see nothing wrong with someone changing their mind after a deal is made as long as there's nothing saying it's not kosher beforehand. We've all received items that, when we opened the box, we just said "This isn't what I expected at all." If you don't want this to happen, make a proviso stating all items are nonrefundable and as is....

Okay...but that's not what happened here. Trader B stated he didn't want to trade before rec'ing the items and after GreatWolf sent and then went ahead and opened the items anyway, thereby claiming that it "wasn't what he was expecting".

Sorry but that sounds fishy to me

[SteveBerenyi]

I'd have to agree with ancient society.

We've all made mistakes. I made a trade and when what i sent wasn't what he was expecting (edition/ammount of paint) i just told him if he could use them to keep them or I would pay to have them sent back.

But after the fact opening and saying it wasn't what he wanted. well, that is real fishy.

my 2 cents.

[insidius]

If you want to set restrictions on your trades, make sure you outline them BEFORE the deal is struck. Put them in your ad. I see nothing wrong with someone changing their mind after a deal is made as long as there's nothing saying it's not kosher beforehand. We've all received items that, when we opened the box, we just said "This isn't what I expected at all." If you don't want this to happen, make a proviso stating all items are nonrefundable and as is....

Okay...but that's not what happened here. Trader B stated he didn't want to trade before rec'ing the items and after GreatWolf sent and then went ahead and opened the items anyway, thereby claiming that it "wasn't what he was expecting".

Sorry but that sounds fishy to me

So?

He changed his mind. It doesn't matter if he changed it before or after he opened the box, the fact is, he changed it. I'm not sure someone should be penalized for that, especially considering there were no real ground rules set for the trade.

Some people would argue that the deal was made and blah blah blah which is why I've been fighting for official trade forms on btown for quite some time now (so that these sorts of disagreements don't occur). Having a universally accepted method of trading would be great, as there are just too many different ideas of what is and is not acceptable when it comes to trading.

[nightspawn]

Insidius Im a glad your looking into it in generalizing a standard for trading to make it a universal rule for all of us, I agree with you too that its a broad area to cover with rules .Instead of coming out a one page set of rules We may end up with a constitution.If ever your guys dont come up with one in the future I know its for the best of all.

Thats why I always request for pictures and set a standard amongst my fellow traders to clear up the trade , WYSIWYG.IF they back out then return stuff and place the dude in a "Dont Trade With Anymore" amongst ourselves.

I have a list of my own GW, just charge it to experience.

Hope you get this thru GW.

Cheers

[ancientsociety]

Some people would argue that the deal was made and blah blah blah which is why I've been fighting for official trade forms on btown for quite some time now (so that these sorts of disagreements don't occur). Having a universally accepted method of trading would be great, as there are just too many different ideas of what is and is not acceptable when it comes to trading.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, Insidius. I too think there should be some form or language that makes these things a done deal.

But, we've discussed this in the past and it's my understanding that a negative can be left if one trader backs out of the deal once money changes hands or a shipping occurs.

In this case, I also think it DOES matter that Trader B backed out of the trade after the agreed upon shipping date and communicated this to Greatwolf but then summarily opened the package and then said he "wasn;t satisfied.

Wasn't satisfied with WHAT? He wanted to cancel the trade, items sight unseen, but then went ahead anyway and rifled thru the box? WTH is that? He had no reason to open the box, just rewrite the address and return it.

Sorry but Trader B should have kept his paws to himself (after all, if he's cancelling the trade, those aren't his items), kept his mouth shut about "condition" (he has not reason to complain, considering he already cancelled the deal), and been nice enough to send it back, possibly with money to cover GW's shipping. Anything else is the sign of a bad trader.

[insidius]

Some people would argue that the deal was made and blah blah blah which is why I've been fighting for official trade forms on btown for quite some time now (so that these sorts of disagreements don't occur). Having a universally accepted method of trading would be great, as there are just too many different ideas of what is and is not acceptable when it comes to trading.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, Insidius. I too think there should be some form or language that makes these things a done deal.

But, we've discussed this in the past and it's my understanding that a negative can be left if one trader backs out of the deal once money changes hands or a shipping occurs.

In this case, I also think it DOES matter that Trader B backed out of the trade after the agreed upon shipping date and communicated this to Greatwolf but then summarily opened the package and then said he "wasn;t satisfied.

Wasn't satisfied with WHAT? He wanted to cancel the trade, items sight unseen, but then went ahead anyway and rifled thru the box? WTH is that? He had no reason to open the box, just rewrite the address and return it.

Sorry but Trader B should have kept his paws to himself (after all, if he's cancelling the trade, those aren't his items), kept his mouth shut about "condition" (he has not reason to complain, considering he already cancelled the deal), and been nice enough to send it back, possibly with money to cover GW's shipping. Anything else is the sign of a bad trader.

Is it out of the realm of possibility that perhaps "Trader B" opened the box to see if maybe the items he saw inside would change his mind yet again, and that he might possibly go through with the deal?

Instead he found something he didn't like, and decided he changed his mind for good reason.

"Anything else is a bad trader."

This is exactly what I'm talking about. People all have their own idea of what constitutes a bad trader. There are some who even think they can tag someone with a bad trader ref if the person changes their mind before addresses are even exchanged, and people who would slap someone with a bad trader ref just for not responding to a PM concerning a potential trade. If that was the case, I'd be a terrible trader.

[GreatWolf]

Wow, all very interesting comments.

Again, thank you all for your posts here.

Again, to clarify... the deal went like this:
We made the deal.
We exchanged shipping addresses.
I sent the stuff. (thinking he would be also doing that)
He then wanted to back out because he no longer wanted what I was sending him, but I told him they were already shipped. (as they were)
He said, fine he would stick to the deal and ship my stuff out to me. (so TWICE he agreed to the deal)
He waited until he recieved the package I sent him and then said they were not what he expected, and again wanted to back out of the deal we had struck, this time on the terms of they werent what he expected.

Insidius my friend, no offense... remind me never to trade with you. lol. I dont know where you come from, but where I come from a man is as good as his word, and his word is his bond. When I agree to a deal, I dont give nor accept it so lightly as you seem to. When I tell a trader here or elswhere that I am going to do something, they can "take that to the bank", and they can rest in that I am a man of my word and that I will come through on my end. And I expect the same. I dont need rules to tell me what automatically goes without saying. A deal is a deal. To do otherwise is to invite dishonesty, broken deals, chaos, and in general a lousey place to trade. And that is not why I came to bartertown. I trade on batertown because there (for the most part) is a lot of respect and honesty between traders.

If I cant trust my trading partner to uphold thier word, and not backout of an agreement, then I might as well put a big sign on my posts saying "STEAL FROM ME". And if I can just back out of any deal because... well the moon is off course this month... then bartertown is not a good place to trade on. And no one in thier right mind will want to. Get my point?

That said, I do believe there should be something in the rules stating that traders should MAKE SURE that they want to go through with a trade BEFORE they agree to it. And that breaking a deal will be penalized.

And again, I DO trade here because MOST traders are men/women who know that a deal is a deal and are not out to scam or break deals, but to gain from a mutually beneficial trade or sale. And THANK YOU TO ALL WHO ARE UPSTANDING TRADERS WORKING TO MAKE BATERTOWN THE PLACE IT IS. My hats off to you!

'Nuff said

[ancientsociety]

@Greatwolf:

but where I come from a man is as good as his word, and his word is his bond. When I agree to a deal, I dont give nor accept it so lightly as you seem to....And again, I DO trade here because MOST traders are men/women who know that a deal is a deal and are not out to scam or break deals, but to gain from a mutually beneficial trade or sale. And THANK YOU TO ALL WHO ARE UPSTANDING TRADERS WORKING TO MAKE BATERTOWN THE PLACE IT IS. My hats off to you!

'Nuff said

I wholeheartedly agree. You're only as good as your word on BT and, if Trader B keeps doing this, no one will trade with him.

@Insidius:

Well all know you're really a bad trader. You're like a Cyberman with your negative refs though - DELETE!

Come on, admit it!

[nightspawn]

GW

Since We talked about this in the chatroom there's another concern ,"WHAT IF" you decided to have your stuff returned . I have seen this before ,He could bring up who would pay for the shipping? I would say he should be responsible since he is the one who backed out late.Since this is a trade and your not a proprietor I would say he should also refund your shipping.Also if he refuses to return your stuff due to shipping. Thats as clear as daylight for a bad trader.


I may jumped into a conclusion on this one , but I just want to let you know GW what could happen after this.

LMK how this goes.

Cheers

[insidius]

Insidius my friend, no offense... remind me never to trade with you.

I suspect we will never need to cross that bridge. Friend was a nice touch, though.

lol. I dont know where you come from, but where I come from a man is as good as his word, and his word is his bond. When I agree to a deal, I dont give nor accept it so lightly as you seem to.

This is precisely my point. We don't all have the same "one true background" you seem to expect everyone else to possess. We are all operating on different wavelengths. Yes, some of our ideals may overlap, but you can't expect, and certainly shouldn't punish someone for not sharing the same ideals as you, no matter how well intentioned they are. Yes it sucks that we all don't see eye to eye here, but that's the way it is and the best we can do is try and cope. I don't think it's the mods or admins job to enforce ethics here. We enforce rules.

Oh, and I'll thank you to not make this personal. We don't agree, fine, but do not attack me with veiled insults. It's quite beneath the character you seem to be praising in yourself. This isn't about me. I'm not against you.

When I tell a trader here or elswhere that I am going to do something, they can "take that to the bank", and they can rest in that I am a man of my word and that I will come through on my end. And I expect the same. I dont need rules to tell me what automatically goes without saying. A deal is a deal. To do otherwise is to invite dishonesty, broken deals, chaos, and in general a lousey place to trade. And that is not why I came to bartertown. I trade on batertown because there (for the most part) is a lot of respect and honesty between traders.

Fantastic. You were raised well. I'll remind you again that not all of us were, however. You can expect all you want, up and down, but that won't change the fact that we all see the world around us differently. It doesn't 'go without saying' to all of us. What may seem to be common sense to you and me may not even enter into the picture (as evidenced by this thread) for some other people. Again, this is why standardized trade forms would get us all on the same page, no pun intended.

If I cant trust my trading partner to uphold thier word, and not backout of an agreement, then I might as well put a big sign on my posts saying "STEAL FROM ME". And if I can just back out of any deal because... well the moon is off course this month... then bartertown is not a good place to trade on. And no one in thier right mind will want to. Get my point?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does your signature not say "If it is our first time trading: Lower feedback sends first. No exceptions. "?

You went against your own rules.

You knew the risk. You took the chance anyway. Granted, he may have done the same thing were he to send first, but them's the breaks. At least you wouldn't be out time or shipping costs or whatever (which I fully agree that you should be reimbursed for).

I'm not saying what he did or did not do was ok or otherwise. I'm saying that people change their minds. Like you changing your mind about your own personal rule.

In short, I think you're blowing this way out of proportion. That's just my opinion.

That said, I do believe there should be something in the rules stating that traders should MAKE SURE that they want to go through with a trade BEFORE they agree to it. And that breaking a deal will be penalized.

To me, that goes without saying. But again, we're back at perspective and how we all differ.

Again, we arrive at "What constitutes a deal?" When do we know when a deal has been finalized? Ask 10 people and get 10 different answers.


The above is my personal opinion and should not be taken as the opinion of Bartertown or any of its associates.

[GreatWolf]

Well, I dont want to jinx myself here. But I have talked with the trader again, and he actually has agreed that we did make and agreement/deal and that he should stick to it.

So... it seems at this point that he will be going through with the deal for the most part.

I say "for the most part" because I am still allowing him the "alternate deal" as, well... I guess it's just the "nice thing to do". Not patting myself on the back, its just that, well, I tyr to put myself in the "other guys" shoes. And I figured it would be a decent compromise, and one that I am okay with. I know some of you will disagree with me on that, but that's okay, I respect your opinions too, and even understand why you would dissagree. Technically, he SHOULD give me everything he agreed upon. I cant, and wont argue that. But I am okay with this new arangement. And he is actually going to give me some of the stuff that I had removed from our original agreement as well. So, Ill actually be getting pretty much the original agreement minus a few bits. I am calling it good enough!

I believe he has been a man about this and admited he was wrong, and I respect that. And I believe that he will come through at this point. I also tend to believe that this was, and will be a one time mistake for him. So, as long as he does keep to this deal, then I see no need to post negative feedback for him or to cause any harm to his reputation here on bartertown. I know some will dissagree with me on that too. BUT please believe me, if I felt he would do this again, (OR IF HE GIVES ME ANY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT HE WOULD DO THIS AGAIN) I would report him and leave him negative feedback so as to warn others. I just do not feel that there is need to as long as he sticks to his word. Again, this guy has perfect feedback and is someone many of you know and have probably even traded with at one point or another. Everybody makes mistakes sometimes. I'll lean on the side of forgivness.

I will keep you all posted of course. If he comes through as I believe he will, I will let you know. AND if he does not, I WILL LET YOU ALL KNOW who he is, and take appropriate measures to protect my fellow traders.

Thanks again all. Great topic this has been. It definitely shows that we need some established rules about this.

Im out... (dang i talk a lot)