Bartertown.com

Since this is probably the most posted phrase on BT what do you consider them to be?

Mine:

Lower rating ships first ("lower" being < 10% of the higher persons rating, eg: I have a rating of 130, if your rating is 116 or less you get to send first)

Anyone with negative feedback sends first (there is no exceptions to this rule, you have already shown yourself to be untrustworthy)

If you don't have at least a 30 rating I'm not paying first.

I refuse to do trades outside of paypal and refuse to send as a gift.

I refuse all trades without suitable pictures of every model.

I will always send a PM with some form of this message "Ok, that sounds good. I consider this to be a confirmed trade at this point." when finalizing any trade. I also attach a list of models being traded, or cash being paid, by both sides.

I reserve the right to terminate a trade because you seem totes sketch. Note: If we have finalized a trade this rule does not apply. If however I feel like you're jerking me around after 2 days of negotiations I will send an email telling you I'm no longer interested in the trade and will no longer deal with you on that trade.

I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I have been in trades and had family stuff/financial problems arise before. I've (on rare occasion) been too ashamed to tell the other person what's going on (I've never had anything shipped to me and then pull the plug though). I try to be understanding that this is just a site to trade metal/plastic warriors and it's not the end of the world something happens.

What are yours?

It's extremely frustrating when people say "Normal Bartertown rules apply" or "Standard Bartertown rules" etc, because why would they NOT apply? You come to a website to use it's features and so you must abide by it's rules, there is no choice in the matter. The Bartertown rules can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=45470

Those are Bartertown's rules and that is what I consider to be them. There is no "rule" that lower ratings ship first, there are no "rules" other than what is on that page.

Now, Trader Guidelines defined by oneself is different. Most people refer to the "Unofficial Guidelines" as defined here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=84312 with any extra additions they personally want for their own terms. It makes sense that people will adapt these guidelines, but they are not Bartertown rules and to state as much is preposterous.

My personal trading guidelines are flexible since every situation is different, however I like to follow the unofficial "Lower ratings ship first". This is hardly the issue since I am fairly low any ways and so normally ship first lol. Everything else is negotiated through communication while setting trade agreements.

I too am understanding and I feel I am a very relaxed kind of guy, if someone needs to back out of a trade I understand. Things come up in life and sometimes plans change, these changed plans can sometimes revolve around your hobby and it's okay, however, I expect full communication during a trade. If someone decides they want to give me the loop and not communicate I will attempt communication twice (after the last few messages of "what's going on", etc have been read). If no communication is received after I send my final message (usually stating a Back-out Report will be filed) then I will continue to inform the community the actions of the trader.

I too agree that a person with a negative reference should send first, however this is also situational. If the negative has been recent or within the last 3-4 months or if they have not done many trades since, I will request them to send first. If their negative was two years ago and they have had 100+ successful positive trades since then I will be more lenient in sending first. Since I always do a BTR check on my trading partners I can see exactly the terms of the BTR which of course can finalize any decisions I make on the trade.

Other than that it is totally situational and I always define the agreement(s) with the trading partner before anything is officially agreed upon.

Doctari wrote:If you don't have at least a 30 rating I'm not paying first.

I refuse to do trades outside of paypal and refuse to send as a gift.

I don't know that I agree with these. For buying, I pay first all the time. Also, I ask that people pay by gift, but I give them the choice of normal price or a discounted price with gift usually. I realize that the gift thing is more for low ref traders and I did not asking for it until I got a pretty high ref list. I also try to go out of my way to fix things for buyers when there are issues.

I reserve the right to terminate a trade because you seem totes sketch.

I am a man, so I have never used the term 'totes sketch'.

Mine is that a deal isn't final until the money is paid. I get multiple offers on the same stuff all the time and go with whoever pays first.

Re: Totes. Several of the kids (young adults) in my lab use vernacular that I'm not all that comfortable with. I try and keep up with the current phrasing so it doesn't feel like I'm teaching an 'English as a second language' class.

Re: Paypal. Sending as a gift removes your ability to contest the paypal shipment. You've stated that the money was a gift, not a payment for any service and as I understand it paypal will not intervene in those circumstances. Just makes it easier for someone to take mine without sending theirs.

As far as paying first goes it really depends on my mood. But in general if you've not completed 15 trades I just don't feel comfortable working with you in the drivers seat. I guess I might make an exception for someone who had been on the board for a long while but it would be a rarity for me.

Doctari wrote:Re: Paypal. Sending as a gift removes your ability to contest the paypal shipment. You've stated that the money was a gift, not a payment for any service and as I understand it paypal will not intervene in those circumstances. Just makes it easier for someone to take mine without sending theirs.

No, I'm completely aware of how it works. I just ask people to send gift because it saves me fees and I am confident in my ability to resolve the situation without paypal intervention. I do not feel the same way when I send money, unless it is to someone I trust.

All quotes snipped to suit my purposes.

Doctari wrote:Since this is probably the most posted phrase on BT what do you consider them to be?

Mine:

Lower rating ships first ("lower" being < 10% of the higher persons rating, eg: I have a rating of 130, if your rating is 116 or less you get to send first)

If you don't have at least a 30 rating I'm not paying first.

I refuse to do trades outside of paypal and refuse to send as a gift.

First... don't those two conflict? If you're buying from someone, and he's rated lower, doesn't that mean he ships first? I don't see where the 30 rating comes into play.

That said...
The only Normal, Standard, or any other sort of RULES that apply on BT can be found here:

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=45470

Anything else is a personal trade rule or guideline. Referring to personal rules as "Bartertown rules" in any fashion does, has, and will continue to cause miscommunication. I get at least one PM a month for someone looking for assistance and, when I see the transaction/PM history, one of them has referred to "Lower rating ships first" as a Bartertown rule. There are traders with 20+ ratings who DO NOT KNOW that isn't true, because people who were higher rated than they were used that term, and they just presumed it was something not listed in the link above.

My PERSONAL rules can be found in my sig line. There is only one Personal rule. Lower rating ships first.
I don't care if it's a sale or trade. If you're lower rated than me, I'm getting my stuff first. Period. I've lost out on many trades for that purpose, and I don't regret missing any of them. It's also kept me from getting caught by at least 3 different scammers.
I always make sure that the other person knows it IS a deal killer for me but that, if they have an issue with it, I won't hold a grudge. Only once or twice has the person ever been offended.
I do reserve the right to suspend that rule for people with lower ratings who've earned my trust, and I regularly do. I've even shipped first before, simply because it worked for my schedule to do so.

3eland wrote:It's extremely frustrating when people say "Normal Bartertown rules apply" or "Standard Bartertown rules" etc, because why would they NOT apply? You come to a website to use it's features and so you must abide by it's rules, there is no choice in the matter. The Bartertown rules can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=45470

Those are Bartertown's rules and that is what I consider to be them. There is no "rule" that lower ratings ship first, there are no "rules" other than what is on that page.
<<SNIP>>

I too agree that a person with a negative reference should send first, however this is also situational. If the negative has been recent or within the last 3-4 months or if they have not done many trades since, I will request them to send first. If their negative was two years ago and they have had 100+ successful positive trades since then I will be more lenient in sending first. Since I always do a BTR check on my trading partners I can see exactly the terms of the BTR which of course can finalize any decisions I make on the trade.

Other than that it is totally situational and I always define the agreement(s) with the trading partner before anything is officially agreed upon.

What's with this guy, and why does he keep saying everything I am going to say before I do?
LOL

My difference on negatives is that they're situational. If Porkuslime received a negative because he backed out of an agreed trade or because of something non-sketchy, I'm not going to insist that he ship first. You guys have to realize that we can be lenient on negative ref's. MUCH of it is based on the opinion of the person leaving a ref. We often get requests to remove negatives. When we do, we don't look at whether WE think they were deserved. We look at whether we think it would be reasonable for the person who LEFT the ref to have done so. Many times, I've disagreed with the person leaving the ref, but left it, because I could see his p.o.v.

pretre wrote:

Doctari wrote:If you don't have at least a 30 rating I'm not paying first.

I refuse to do trades outside of paypal and refuse to send as a gift.

I don't know that I agree with these. For buying, I pay first all the time. Also, I ask that people pay by gift, but I give them the choice of normal price or a discounted price with gift usually. I realize that the gift thing is more for low ref traders and I did not asking for it until I got a pretty high ref list. I also try to go out of my way to fix things for buyers when there are issues.

Mine is that a deal isn't final until the money is paid. I get multiple offers on the same stuff all the time and go with whoever pays first.

Re: paying first
There are many experienced traders who agreed with that p.o.v. until they paid first and got ripped off. Many.

Re: Finalized deal
BTown's official stance is that it's a deal when you both agree to it. If you agree to a deal with 2 people and back out of the guy who didn't pay first, he will be fully supported for filing a backout report and negative reference on you. It's bad form to agree to deals you cannot possibly keep.

Doctari wrote:Re: Paypal. Sending as a gift removes your ability to contest the paypal shipment. You've stated that the money was a gift, not a payment for any service and as I understand it paypal will not intervene in those circumstances. Just makes it easier for someone to take mine without sending theirs.

As far as paying first goes it really depends on my mood. But in general if you've not completed 15 trades I just don't feel comfortable working with you in the drivers seat. I guess I might make an exception for someone who had been on the board for a long while but it would be a rarity for me.

That isn't true about PayPal. It removes your ability to contest it ONLINE, but you will have success if you take the time to call an operator. I've seen it done many times in the case of scammers.

When I sell things on here, I include a line like this (and it's 100% true).
"I would prefer if you'd send the payment as a personal payment (not gift). This keeps you protected, but removes the fees PayPal takes. With the sales I do on eBay, I get hit twice by the same company on each sale. Ebay/PayPal get enough funds from me that way that I prefer not to give them any from my sales here.
That said, if it's a deal killer for you, it is NOT one for me. In that case, just pay via the regular manner and I'll eat the fees."

Only once has anyone refused to pay in that manner... and he just chose to pay the fees, since I was already giving him a great deal.
And I do understand that my rating has a lot to do with that, as well as my Admin status.
(I NEVER EVER bring my Admin status into the conversation and, if it's brought up by the other guy, I make sure to address it; BTown staff expect and should receive no special treatment in trades simply because they are staff. In fact, if a staffer is found trying to use his status for leverage on price, who ships first, etc., he's taken to task. Depending on the situation, it could mean immediate removal from staff, in fact. We say not to even bring it up conversationally.
But, I digress...)


Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:Re: Finalized deal
BTown's official stance is that it's a deal when you both agree to it. If you agree to a deal with 2 people and back out of the guy who didn't pay first, he will be fully supported for filing a backout report and negative reference on you. It's bad form to agree to deals you cannot possibly keep.

I may have been a bit unclear in my statement. I don't mean I say 'Okay, good to go, here's my paypal. Good luck paying first!'.

I mean, I continue to negotiate multiple deals until one gets to the step where I say 'Okay, here's my paypal. Let's do X for $Y.' At that point, the other dudes are SOL unless this guy decides to backout.

pretre wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:Re: Finalized deal
BTown's official stance is that it's a deal when you both agree to it. If you agree to a deal with 2 people and back out of the guy who didn't pay first, he will be fully supported for filing a backout report and negative reference on you. It's bad form to agree to deals you cannot possibly keep.

I may have been a bit unclear in my statement. I don't mean I say 'Okay, good to go, here's my paypal. Good luck paying first!'.

I mean, I continue to negotiate multiple deals until one gets to the step where I say 'Okay, here's my paypal. Let's do X for $Y.' At that point, the other dudes are SOL unless this guy decides to backout.

Okay. Yeah.
LOL
That's different. : )

I think most of us do that.

Eric

I am new to the site so my point of view may be a bit different. I read the official rules and have no isdues with them. One thing i liked about Bartertown is the ability to not only report Bad trades, but the assistance people provided with those situations. Hopefully i gathered enough info from reading the trader reports to help myself avoid making trade mistakes.

Official rules - no problems with those. I wont't post a link to them, others have already done that in this thread.

Unofficial / Personal rules - it depends on the rule. I have a mighty Feedback of 2. I am shipping or paying first. No one here knows me, I havn't earned your trust. I accept that.
Sending Paypal as a gift? No thank you. If the deal is at a good price tell me what the fee is and either I will pay it or maybe we can split it. MM said it can be a direct payment with no fees, can we use that as an option?

One thing to bear in mind is as a new person I havn't earned anyones trust. I accept that. All I have on my side are official rules, no personal rules. I will try to meet you on anything but there are times when even as a new guy I won't bend. I won't try to offend anyone and ask for the same in return.

Reasonably said.
As for the payment... I forget the actual wording. Last I looked, though, there was an option for "gift" and an option for "personal payment" (or some such).

Eric

There is now an option for sending it to a "friend or relative".. and that is free.

I have rationalized that anyone on this site that I am dealing with in trade negotitations could be considered a "friend" .. lol

Way less creepy than sending money to my creepy Uncle Eric..

MagickalMemories wrote:
<SNIP>

3eland wrote:It's extremely frustrating when people say "Normal Bartertown rules apply" or "Standard Bartertown rules" etc, because why would they NOT apply? You come to a website to use it's features and so you must abide by it's rules, there is no choice in the matter. The Bartertown rules can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=45470

Those are Bartertown's rules and that is what I consider to be them. There is no "rule" that lower ratings ship first, there are no "rules" other than what is on that page.
<<SNIP>>

I too agree that a person with a negative reference should send first, however this is also situational. If the negative has been recent or within the last 3-4 months or if they have not done many trades since, I will request them to send first. If their negative was two years ago and they have had 100+ successful positive trades since then I will be more lenient in sending first. Since I always do a BTR check on my trading partners I can see exactly the terms of the BTR which of course can finalize any decisions I make on the trade.

Other than that it is totally situational and I always define the agreement(s) with the trading partner before anything is officially agreed upon.

What's with this guy, and why does he keep saying everything I am going to say before I do?
LOL

<SNIP>

Eric

Great minds think alike!

I would like to think I have a decent rating, and I look at money as a trade. I am trading my money for your stuff, or vice versa. If I have a higher rating, I will ask you ship first. The bonus side to that is that after I receive the goods, I have no issues sending you Paypal as a gift. After I have goods in hand, no reason for me to file a claim to get money back.

There has been a few times where the other trader has a lower score - and I give them the option if they insist I pay first. You ship first, I pay as gift. I pay first, you are paying PayPal fees. And I would only do that for someone who has proven themselves her - maybe a 60 rating or so, and only if I really want what they have.

MagickalMemories wrote:All quotes snipped to suit my purposes.

First... don't those two conflict? If you're buying from someone, and he's rated lower, doesn't that mean he ships first? I don't see where the 30 rating comes into play.

I don't feel that it does. I view buying/selling as different from trading. You can't even go to a flea market and get goods without paying first. But with really low ratings I just refuse to take the chance. If, however, you have over a 30 rating I feel that you've pretty much established yourself and deserve some of the aforementioned good will.

Re: Paypal. Thanks for the information on being able to call them and get a resolution. I just figured they would do big business bureaucracy and stone wall you.

I think I just prefer the standard: pay for goods and services rout. It lays out a legal contract of exchange. My cash for your goods. And I always attach a receipt of what I'm paying for. I also send a pm on the board before I pay outlining both parties agreed upon obligations (i.e. my part of the trade and your part of the trade). It also pays paypal for a service that they are rendering. Might just be my personal stance but I figure the 2 or 3% is fair compensation for not having to deal with personal checks and money orders. I can't tell you how many times back in the early 2000s that I got a bad check from someone on this board.

No that's not true. 2. 2 is the number of times.. Still.

Doctari wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:All quotes snipped to suit my purposes.

First... don't those two conflict? If you're buying from someone, and he's rated lower, doesn't that mean he ships first? I don't see where the 30 rating comes into play.

I don't feel that it does. I view buying/selling as different from trading. You can't even go to a flea market and get goods without paying first. But with really low ratings I just refuse to take the chance. If, however, you have over a 30 rating I feel that you've pretty much established yourself and deserve some of the aforementioned good will.

The flea market's not the best example. You kind of DO get the goods before paying. Typically, you'd pick them up & look at them, then make an offer/pay/etc.
Would you pay that guy at the flea market if he promised to send the items to you in the mail? I mean the random guy who's selling things he cleaned out of his attic, not one of the regulars who has his own designated stall and operates it like a true business. I wouldn't.

Doctari wrote:Re: Paypal. Thanks for the information on being able to call them and get a resolution. I just figured they would do big business bureaucracy and stone wall you.

Yeah. You've got toplay the game a bit "I didn't realize that..." and "It won't happen again," but it's worked numerous times for people who've filed BTRs.

Doctari wrote:I think I just prefer the standard: pay for goods and services rout. It lays out a legal contract of exchange. My cash for your goods. And I always attach a receipt of what I'm paying for. I also send a pm on the board before I pay outlining both parties agreed upon obligations (i.e. my part of the trade and your part of the trade). It also pays paypal for a service that they are rendering. Might just be my personal stance but I figure the 2 or 3% is fair compensation for not having to deal with personal checks and money orders. I can't tell you how many times back in the early 2000s that I got a bad check from someone on this board.

No that's not true. 2. 2 is the number of times.. Still.

I won't knock your preference. I just can't agree. Scammers don't care if you have a legal contract (regardless who sends/pays first, it's a contract) or if you laid out everything to suppport your case. They're trying for a snatch & run.

Eric