Bartertown.com

Hello all, So I recently put up a LM army in the sale section without any hits, (I'm just extremely impatient/ the g/f wants it out of the house) resorting to eBay to move it quickly, I was hit with the: Wha..... happened here? Wall. This lead me to not list it there.

Ebay is looking more and more like a ghost town as time goes on. I used to browse there quite often but from the looks of things sellers seem to get the shaft. I don't blame people one bit with the horrible fees and buyers can't be wrong philosophy. So, now I'm looking for an alternative to both Paypal and eBay.

Does anyone know a good/trustworthy Paypal alternative? (I'm going to keep my account for BT but not much else.)
Ebay alternatives? I'm looking into eBid now, It reminds me of what eBay WAS, and I like that.

Craigslist is out. People around Vancouver are flaky at best and Warhammer is dying fast around here.

Any help would be great
Thanks!

Honestly...not really. I bought from Miniaturebids.com once but it was chock full of scammers. Took me 45 days and a Paypal dispute to get my stuff, and it was in rough condition.

You might not be getting bites here because you have a low rating and want cash up from. Shipping from Canada to the US is a slow process and frankly I'd be leary of waiting a long time for a shipment that might not arrive if you weren't above board. And your rating is what I need to trust for you to be above board.

So....

You might consider trusting people with a good high rating for you to ship first and get paid after delivery. It sucks, but trust has to be earned.

Edited to add: Sorry, not meaning to imply that YOU personally aren't trustworthy - just that the general purpose of the ratings is to establish and ensure trust. I've been burned now by three people with scores less than 20. It makes me personally VERY wary.

--Robert

Just took a look at Ebids.com - wow, sure are a lot of people trying to sell things AT retail cost. That's going to go far.

--Robert

Yeah, there aren't a lot of alternatives to eBay and Paypal that are as good as them. If you want fast, eBay is probably the way to go.

If you're willing to wait, Bartertown, Dakka or local forums are better.

Okay, thanks guys. I could try shipping first but even I'm leary about sending $300 worth of models before the money is there. Is it worth a try though?

Well, my very first transaction on Btown was my OOP Dark Eldar Army for a Skaven Army. It was about 900 dollarsish worth of miniatures EACH army. We were both new to the site and so we both sent at the same time, I put my faith in him and he in me. We made sure we kept contact and both armies arrived at their destinations safely. Since then, I have traded many large armies (ranging from 300-600+ USD) and am usually the one who goes first.

The reason I haven't had issues is because I am selective in who I do business with. The first contact means a lot to me, if your communication is short and structured in a way that makes me feel uncomfortable I do not trade with you.

"Trade terms" also hinder who I want to deal with, people who are 10 or lower wanting cash up front no exceptions and don't supply an accurate description of their models in their trade thread, saying "Paypal will protect you" or "I have so and so rating on ebay"... I just pass by. I know from personal experience Paypal doesn't always protect you, especially if their bank account is closed or has no money in it among other things that scammers like to pull off. The amount of forums online from a simple Google search can show you exactly how "Paypal can protect you"... Not. Ebay and other third party sites are not Bartertown, I do not care what your rating is elsewhere. It might relax potential traders seeing your rating elsewhere, but Bartertown ratings exist for Bartertown, and that is the rating people use. Don't expect people to pay you up front, especially when your rating is 10. It's like what Starslayer says "How can I trust you with a rating of 10 when you can't trust me with a rating of 400+".

For some reason I get irritated with people who have "Awesomely cool pro-painted OMGZ army of (insert name)" but never have pictures or even a link to pictures in their thread. And then when you ask of pictures they supply blurry, out of focus, bad lighting pictures. If your army is worth (insert amount) then please show me it's worth it. Pictures and accurately describing models will make or break a trade for me. Many times I go into a thread VERY interested to then close the thread when I see no links to pictures or an inaccurate description of models. If your lazy enough to not describe your models (it's actually a Bartertown rule to accurately describe models) then I have no interest in contacting you. Pictures not supplied in the post can be argued either way, but the way I look at it is this: Your going to have X amount of people asking you for pictures any ways, maybe putting some online and linking them into your thread will help with that (even if it's a few group shots). Many times pictures in the thread excite me towards a deal, then, I can ask for specific pictures. Having pictures in your thread only helps the probability that someone is going to want to take the time out of their day to contact you. Remember, you aren't the only one with those models, being able to describe them properly and having those pictures can be what separates you from resorting to eBay and getting a trade here. Now I realize sometimes it's not going to happen. If your selling tons and tons of models your not going to fill your thread with pictures and that's fine, it's mostly when you have a single army or a small list of things (or it's "OMG pro-painted and touched by the Pope of Rome Awesome (insert army)").

Bartertown rules... Please for the sake of it all read them. I am not going to lie.. I report many threads who break the rules (so if your thread was locked due to bumping... Bazinga!)... They are there to keep the community functional, clean and at peace. The rules accurately describe what you can and can not do. Many times a trader's trading practises will break a potential deal when they clearly violate the rules. I mean, if they can't follow the simple rules of a forum, how can I be confident they will follow legal laws?

Another thing I like to do is get all the contact details from the person, then I secretly do a search on them which includes Bartertown references and if they have been in the BTR thread. Then I try and find them online elsewhere (the amount of info online about people is pretty big). Having all the contact information of the person protects you in case you need to pursue action.. And usually when people are willing to give out contact information freely and without hesitation they are more trustworthy because they don't have anything to hide.

References are also a big thing. If your score is 100+ with no negatives I am going to feel more comfortable trading with you then someone who has 0-10. Sometimes it helps only trading with people who have high references until you can build up your own. They built their rating on Bartertown because they like Bartertown. I find someone who has invested years and trades and money here isn't going to screw you over.

I am a sucker for details, I clearly define and get acknowledge from my trading partner the exact details of the trade. I also take pictures of all my stuff before I package it, during packaging, and then the package after it is taped and the address written on the label. I keep all my receipts and only ever ship with tracking (unless it's something small like bits I send people or something). Having that information can help you. I don't usually tell my trading partner I have it but I on occasion send them a scan of the receipt along with the tracking number. This I find can help ease any tension. Especially since I live in the boonies and it takes my local Post Office a few hours to get the penguins moving to update the tracking information.

The last thing I look at is posts, now although posts don't make or break a trade, it's always comforting seeing a trader with 300+ posts. It means they are active on Bartertown and usually interacts with the community other than purely trading. Usually a scammer isn't going to take the time to interact and grow a personal connection with the community he is about to rip off.



Any ways, that is just a jumble of what goes on in my head about trading with people. Hopefully some of it helps you in terms of trading on Bartertown. It's a community that is friendly and, well, purely awesome. The amount of time and effort and care the members put out is amazing. Just go check some of the BTR threads... The community helps out those in trouble or who have been on the receiving end of a bad trade.. especially that one chicken loving guy... Goes by the name Primarch Eric or something fancy like that, he always seems to find something to help the person .

Good luck with trading on Bartertown, it's a good place to trade.

P.S. - The amount of eBay fees now is crazy. I don't blame you for looking for a place other than eBay.

Wow, tonnes of good advice there 3eland. I think after this weekend Ill do a revise of the lizzies. Im also going to be putting up my dwarf army too. I do take pics of everything and usually link them to the posting. Sometimes, especially with sprues its a lot easier to just take a photo and let the other person decide.

Another question. Ive never really had a good reference point for price, is there one? Most of my models are WIP and are either pretty beaten up or stripped. (90% of them are second hand already)

Anyone have experience selling video games? Im a vendor at a local flea market and always wondered if BT would make a good secondary market. Ive got facebook up and running but its a slow process trying to build it up. At least through BT I wouldnt mind shipping items.

Get some pics, but your description is not encouraging. I'd say 30-40% of retail max for stripped or beat up. More likely closer to 20-25%

Is it better to strait upload them into the post? I could use some code to make a sort of gallery, is that better than hotlinking to the images on photobucket?

On the topic of prices and what you should expect, it is ultimately up to you and what you want from your goods.

However remember to take into account that there are people on eBay and here that can feed my addiction at 25-30% off retail. If you want your New in Box stuff to sell, remember that you are competing with the stores. Expecting 10% off retail isn't going to get your items sold when I can just go a few threads over or a quick eBay search later and get them for 25% off. Unusual items or hard to come by items will sell for more since they are hard to come by. Usually when I sell NIB stuff I like to take 20-25% off retail, this puts me at par with the other people out there selling items and most of the time people barter any ways.

Remember this is a US based site and so your prices should be in USD. Most of the users will look at the price and automatically think USD unless specifically addressed (and even then most people tend to not read the whole post). Don't expect getting your Canadian value in the models, not when in the US they are cheaper. If you stick to USD prices they will sell better.

Painted models can go either way, if they are expertly painted they can go for a higher of a price if they are a full(er) army. Unless the paint scheme matching an already existing army (like ultramarines), it's going to be hard to fit painted models into a scheme unless there is enough points to be an allied attachment or stand on its own. Not many people like paying a higher price for a squad that is going to stand out from their already painted army (unless it's on purpose).

Badly painted models or "Tabletop" models are not going to sell as well as you may hope. Remember, if I can get my models new in box at 25-30% off retail, I am not willing to pay equal to that or more for a model I am going to have to strip and clean. No matter how well you think you can paint, there will always be people who are A) better than you and so your quality is not up to par or B) wanting to strip the models because your colour scheme doesn't match. Usually when I sell painted models I put them up for 50% off retail.

Do not put "Pro-painted", "Expertly painted", "OMGZ the coolest, pro-painted army in the UNIVERSE!!!!!1111!!" unless it truly is painted that way. Too many people put this in their title and thread as well as on eBay and the paint job literally sucks. If your going to sell your army "pro-painted" it better be painted by a pro, and not the "pro" at your local hobby store that paints better than the rest of you but only at a tabletop level... A pro that does this for a living. Go look at SpiralingCadaver or GardenNinja... those are pro-painters. If your model is not at least up to that quality, then it's obviously not "pro". Most people expect pictures of pro-painted armies in your thread, remember from my last post.. If it's pro-painted, please show us that it is with nice clear pictures. Your selling not only the models but the paint job as well. I should go into a "pro-painted" thread expecting to have my mind blown.

Out of Print (or OOP) models don't hold the same value of newer edition models. The only exception is limited OOP models or people specifically looking for them. The best way to look at OOP models is to slap an extra 10% off, this helps sell your models. Many people don't want older models and having a nice price to equalize the fact that it's OOP can help. Usually I sell OOP painted models for 60% off retail. OOP new in box models go for 30-40% off. When you create your post and prices, design it towards people looking for the newest models, this will usually help deciding on what price you want for them.

Anything else is really up to your own judgement, if you only want to sell your army as a whole, please ask for a price that will make up for A) the quality, B) any older models and C) the fact that many people don't want your entire army or specific models. When the thread asks to sell the army as a whole you have to realize that I might only want 50-75% of it, why do I want to pay you for the full army when, again, there are other options out there. Adjusting your asking price on large armies will help sell it better.

Remember that the internet is cheap and this is Bartertown. Bartertown comes with bartering.. it's in the name. Do not get upset or insulted if someone offers you a lower price for your army. If you did not wish to trade with a community and barter than "Barter"town is not for you. Remembering that people are cheap will also help sell. By cheap I mean, people don't want to put a lot of money into their already expensive hobby, ESPECIALLY if they have to put their own time into it. A full, badly painted army that will require stripping, cleaning, assembly, etc is NOT going to sell for a lot and to expect it to is just silly. Even on eBay your not going to sell your army for very much, maybe 50% of retail. Then, eBay fees, Paypal fees and everything else comes out of it. Don't automatically think "oh well I can sell it for 200% on eBay".. good luck, unless it's pro-painted (and I mean actually pro-painted) I personally am not going to bid higher than 50% for an army unless it's ALL new in box/on sprue.

Overall, it's your decision what you want to sell your models at and no one can tell you anything otherwise. Just take into account the rules of thumb and you'll do fine.
Rules of thumb:
1) Models can be found new in box at 20-30% off retail on eBay and Bartertown advertisers.
2) Don't label it Pro unless it truly is.
3) Do not expect painted models to sell at the same price as I can get them new in box.
4) OOP models will not sell at the same price as newer edition models unless someone is looking for them specifically.
5) You competing with the internet.. make your value exciting, set it at a price that people will think "Holy crap that's a good price".
6) Remember your models, paint job, assembly time and all those hours of sweat and blood going into your army means crap to everyone else.





As for pictures and how to set them up it's again a very bias opinion. I usually like to include pictures that are linked from Photobucket. Remember that you have a maximum of 5 pictures per post if you use Bartertown to post them (the built in picture upload feature). Using the reply option to upload more posts of purely pictures with no obvious edit of the original post is technically bumping your post and will get it locked. By linking the pictures from a picture hosting site (in the advance/full editing text box there is an option to link the url of your pictures) you can fit more into your thread (like hundreds and hundreds). Try putting pictures at the end of your post to help keep things clean, the more pictures the better obviously. Some people just put the link to their online album and that is also fine, the pictures don't HAVE to be in your thread, but having pictures will greatly increase your chance of a sale/trade.

Hopefully my, once again, bias opinions help .

Again, lots of goodies, thanks. The pricing seems more clear now too. I was mostly going "What would I pay for it if I wanted it". I guess the only upside is that most of my models are either bare or primed so Im probably looking around the 50% mark. Ill chop up the LM army when I get the chance and do the same with the dwarfs.

Do you ever find it a pain with shipping though? For example if I put a group of the Saurus up for $10 and its $10 to ship them, thats already 50% unintentionally. Arg, Canada Post. Im pretty close to the border but I dont have a current passport and Im not sure they would allow me to just run across to mail things anyways. I guess thats why I though, large army on BT, chop it up for ebay.

You have to always take shipping into account, especially international shipping. Maybe by putting something in your post saying "minimum 50 dollars USD or minimum 100 dollars USD in models if splitting", that way you have enough sold to be worth the shipping. Having them pay the shipping or at least 50-60% of shipping helps sell your models and creates a connection they trust and you'll find they will come back for more. Then when all is sold you can put the rest up on eBay or donate them to new people who want practise pieces or even better, Plarz the bartertown Mechanic paints an army for charity every year, could always see if the extra, left over models are worth anything to him.

Canada Post sucks for international shipping and you'll find many US traders don't want to ship to us due to the expense. Most of the time by working with your trading partner and having good communication will lessen that "Ugh but it's kind of expensive". This is especially true if you sweeten the deal for the trader so he WANTS to buy it it. Throwing in some extras you don't care about can help, or paying shipping yourself.

When I sell an army here on Btown I always include free shipping (for the full army, I usually say buyer pays shipping for splitting it into pieces)... but the shipping is actually in the price I am asking for. I don't look at selling my army as in "Oh I have to make my money back".. doesn't work like that.. even cars devalue the second they leave the parking lot. What you need to do is look at your army and think "What would be a good amount to get from this that I would be happy with", remembering taking into account quality and what ever else. Then, approach it with that thought in mind. Even raising the price up a little and putting Free Shipping with Tracking will get traders. I have found, in the many years I have dealt with shipping to the states here and on other third party sites is that shipping will be around 50 dollars for tracked and insured.

With eBay you have to remember the fees. If your 10 dollar LM unit sells and they pay shipping cool, but then eBay takes 10% of the final price (at the end of the month) and Paypal takes 7%ish of the final price (right away)... Not saying eBay isn't a good place to sell your models, but realistically it isn't the best place if you want to make a decent profit from your models unless price means nothing to you and any money you get your happy with.

I almost always make the buyer pay shipping.

Alzarakh wrote:Okay, thanks guys. I could try shipping first but even I'm leary about sending $300 worth of models before the money is there. Is it worth a try though?

I understand you being leery, but let's look at something...
Your rating is currently 20. That is 10 successful trades for which you've received a reference, presuming there are no negatives to factor into the equation.
Pretre, on the other hand, is currently 294. That is 147 successful trades for which he's received references, presuming there are no negatives to factor into the equation.
With all other factors being the same, who has done more to establish a reputable reputation?

Now, that's not meant to insult you. I'm just using you as an example, since it's based on a comment you made. I also recognize that you were complaining about shipping first, only explaining your concern. My only point is to use a comparative reference. The rist of sending you $300 up front is more than the risk of sending him the models first. Know what I mean?

As for whether it's worth a try or not - it definitely is. Remember that this is YOUR sale, though. You and the buyer determine the terms. If the buyer has only a 26 rating, for example... that isn't but 3 more trades than you. I could far more easily understand your hesitation to send first in that case than I could in the one above. If you're going to list it for cash and are willing to jump into the "ship first" pool under the right circumstances, you CAN set your own terms:
"I am willing to ship first to anyone with a rating of 100 or more (60 or more, 80 or more, whatever). Anyone with a score below X will be expected to pay in advance."
In that case, I would not make X the same as the other score. You should leave a range of refs where you're willing to discuss who ships first.

Eric

UMMM see my post about mailing COD.
It should be stickied under how to trade with a new trader.

MagickalMemories wrote:

Alzarakh wrote:Okay, thanks guys. I could try shipping first but even I'm leary about sending $300 worth of models before the money is there. Is it worth a try though?

I understand you being leery, but let's look at something...
Your rating is currently 20. That is 10 successful trades for which you've received a reference, presuming there are no negatives to factor into the equation.
Pretre, on the other hand, is currently 294. That is 147 successful trades for which he's received references, presuming there are no negatives to factor into the equation.
With all other factors being the same, who has done more to establish a reputable reputation?

Now, that's not meant to insult you. I'm just using you as an example, since it's based on a comment you made. I also recognize that you were complaining about shipping first, only explaining your concern. My only point is to use a comparative reference. The rist of sending you $300 up front is more than the risk of sending him the models first. Know what I mean?

As for whether it's worth a try or not - it definitely is. Remember that this is YOUR sale, though. You and the buyer determine the terms. If the buyer has only a 26 rating, for example... that isn't but 3 more trades than you. I could far more easily understand your hesitation to send first in that case than I could in the one above. If you're going to list it for cash and are willing to jump into the "ship first" pool under the right circumstances, you CAN set your own terms:
"I am willing to ship first to anyone with a rating of 100 or more (60 or more, 80 or more, whatever). Anyone with a score below X will be expected to pay in advance."
In that case, I would not make X the same as the other score. You should leave a range of refs where you're willing to discuss who ships first.

Eric