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Hello all
First time posting but I've been reading quite a bit. Firstly I started playing 40k back in the good ol days when it was $20 for 20 models or close to that. I haven't touched a GW model since I can remember (in fear that it will somehow steal my money haha). Now I understand that the game and figures are great and fun to some people. That being said I cannot understand why I still hear and read about the prices going up and the company not treating gamers well. If the company is so bad, models cost too much, stop buying, stop supporting the game. I not being hostile but I'm trying to understand the mindset of a GW player.

I have hade many the run ins with GW players as well. Is it just Me or are GW players starting to be a little obnoxious? Not all of course, and I'm not trying to insult anyone but I'm really trying to understand this whole thing. I feel as though if you don't go into a game store to play 40k or fantasy, you have no claim to any tables because you are not deemed "worthy" to play on 40k tables. Or is this in my mind?

Last thing, I seem to over hear time and time again on how expensive things are and that they won't be eating this week or what have you, while they are IN LINE buying more GW. In my opinion, there are sooooooo many cheaper, better, and cooler looking modeled games out there that can be invested in. So again I ask, why? Why do I keep hearing all this complaining and moaning about this company, yet these are the same people who week after week buy and support this "aweful" money draining company/game. Let me know what you think, or explain it to me. Maybe I'm missing something? Thanks guys

It's not too expensive if people keep buying...

Here is how I understand the "situation" proclaimed in your post.

$20 for 20 models back on the day was a deal, we can all agree to that. Now it is around $40 for 12-16 models and people are thinking it's way over-priced but let us look at the little details behind the price and try to understand why. The models back in the early days aren't that greatly detailed, this is because the technology at that time was just being developed for tiny little 28mm heroic style miniatures. Leap ahead to today, and your models are finely detailed and a lot better quality than before. This advancement in technology to give you the better looking miniatures is more expensive than in the past, and so yes you have to pay a little more. Then we look into the price increase each year, minimum wage increases pretty much every year (or at least it does in Canada), the cost of living increases, hell a chocolate bar can even increase! I remember paying 60 cents for a chocolate bar when I was a kid and now it's 1.15-1.35! Gas/oil has increased, I am sure you all remember how cheap it was even 10 years ago compared to today. So then why, if everything around you is increasing in prices a little bit every year does a massive company like GW have to keep their prices the same? It is only expected for them to increase along with everyone else.

I do not find GW obnoxious, they are a business like any other that have investors and the like. Sure getting rid of free pick-up games at the local GW sucks but think about it from the companies point of view. You have 1 maybe 2 guys working at a store, having random strangers coming in and using their tables, you must be able to monitor not only your customers but the players. I have seen terrain go missing, blisters being stolen and yet they should still let strangers play freely? It's not GW's fault they cannot trust the community to give them the opportunity to play on tables for free, it was the communities own fault for that. The other thing, is say you CAN play at a GW store, why would they let you play another game other than Warhammer Fantasy, 40K or the Hobbit/LotR? You playing Warmachine inside a GW will not help them make sales. Most of the time when people walk into a GW and see the people playing at the tables, they see the models (painted or not) and it actually HELPS GW in making sales. That 15 year old really likes the zombie dragons and endless hordes of skeletons and zombies? Well, looks like mommy knows what to get him. The only thing now with the stopping of free table playing is that they do not have that free advertising, but then again, when things go missing or get broken at least you can't blame it on the players.....

You bring up the point that there are so many cheaper alternatives, and your right, there are. What you need to also realize is that a person who has played Warhammer for a great amount of time is not going to just throw themselves off the Warwagon for another game (with some rare occasions). If you have collected your Empire army or your Tyranids army for 10 years, invested thousands of dollars over that 10 years and even more amounts of time converting and painting and playing, why just throw it away because you cannot afford the new big bug or tank (although I don't agree that the prices have gotten to such an enormous price that people cannot afford to eat). It's like if you bought a car, or a plane, or a truck or whatever you fancy the most (video games maybe). Just because the PS4 or the Xbox One is more expensive doesn't mean your going to just throw it aside and play the Nintendo DS, no your going to invest into the new console so you can continue to play your games. Everything gets more expensive yes, but changing what you play because of it is just silly, especially for the veterans who have invested years and money into their hobby. And remember that's all it is in the end... a Hobby.

To say GW is an awful company without knowing how such a company works, or what it has to go through is silly to me. I see forums and threads all about "GW is the bully, they like to punish the small guys"... well, when a big company MUST act on even the smallest claim of copyright, trademark, or IP infringement or risk losing EVERYTHING, I think (if I was in that position) I would act just the same. Look at it in another sense, say you open a business for socks, you have a huge range of socks, some socks glow in the dark and some socks sing you to sleep. In order to keep your socks yours, that is under your IP, copyright, trademark, whatever you hold for your company for your socks, you must fight other companies trying to rip you off. If you don't, you lose all rights to your socks and another person can then take them. How would you feel? Probably a little (if not a lot) annoyed. GW is like you, their models your socks. If they do not act on any claim, they risk losing everything, that means no more models, no more anything. Think that's harsh? Imagine the amount of money they have to throw away just to get third party companies to stop ripping them off. Now of course there are some companies that have won, but it's not not the fact that those companies were in the right for making what they did, it still boils down to if GW DID NOT ACT, GW would risk losing IT ALL.

Trying to compare GW with another company like PP, or KoW, or whatever else is like comparing McDonalds to Wendy's or even to that shady little Chinese place that you swear stole your cat..... Each place has different food and a different clientèle, aka the people who eat there. Some people are die hard fans of the Wendy's burger, while others enjoy mixing it up between Wendy's, McDonalds, Taco Bell, KFC, etc. (I knew a guy that would only eat Wendy's food in college, nothing else).

I play Warhammer fantasy and 40k, but I also play Warmachine and Hordes. Each game is completely different, I know some people who swear by 40k, others swear by Hordes. Sometimes a person enjoys a certain aspect of a game over another, like having 40k as a beer and pretzel game with your buddies on a Friday night after a long week of work compared to the intense strategy of another game.And of course Vice Versa!

Overall, I find it silly when people will complain about a certain thing they don't like (but then, that makes them human). You find it more on the forums however because people have that over abundance of courage behind the computer screen with their "online alter ego", plus most of them are, in my opinion, pretty immature to cry so many tears over a hobby, or they are a troll and like to start flame wars. I don't see Ford lovers going on their Ford forums complaining "Oh Dodge trucks SUCK! Like OMG, why do they even make the (insert name of car or truck) any more? Total rip off of the (insert name of car or truck)."


TLDR; the community/customers are the obnoxious ones... not GW.

My .02,

Ryan

Also don't forget that the internet is a very small subsection of the GW players. Even when you add in the guys that come into the stores to play, I would imagine there are far more people who never go on a wargaming website, and who never game in a store. There are alot of guys who just play with thier 2-3 friends and that's it.

The noise you hear is from a very small section of the community. It's because of the volume that it seems like there is more anger than there actually is.

I'd love to see someone run a study of active user ID on here or even better on Dakka and give me a ratio of people that have complained that GW is too expensive to people who don't say anything at all. Yes I know this is still flawed as some people may feel that way but not voice it, but I would guess that it is only a small part of the user base.

Too expensive is also relative. I have clients that buy a new sports car every month and it's because they can, but for me, even 1 a Lexus let alone a Ferrari is too expensive, yet they own 6 Ferraris. I have a disposable income, I choose to spend it on GW products, by defination it is not too expensive for me because I still buy it and maintain my standard of living for myself and my family.

If you are buy anything that is a luxury and then can't afford food/rent/bills/etc, then it's not that the item is too expensive, it's you who doesn't have a proper idea of budgeting. It is too expensive for you because you are choosing a luxury over a standard of living.

Prices change from year to year, a filght, hotel and food are more money than they were but you don't hear people who take a vacation every year complain that they are being priced out of their holiday.

TL;DR: Either you can afford it and you choose to buy it, or you can't. There's no such thing as buying something that is too expensive. You have to pay to play.

optimusprime14 wrote:Also don't forget that the internet is a very small subsection of the GW players. Even when you add in the guys that come into the stores to play, I would imagine there are far more people who never go on a wargaming website, and who never game in a store. There are alot of guys who just play with thier 2-3 friends and that's it.

The noise you hear is from a very small section of the community. It's because of the volume that it seems like there is more anger than there actually is.

I'd love to see someone run a study of active user ID on here or even better on Dakka and give me a ratio of people that have complained that GW is too expensive to people who don't say anything at all. Yes I know this is still flawed as some people may feel that way but not voice it, but I would guess that it is only a small part of the user base.

Too expensive is also relative. I have clients that buy a new sports car every month and it's because they can, but for me, even 1 a Lexus let alone a Ferrari is too expensive, yet they own 6 Ferraris. I have a disposable income, I choose to spend it on GW products, by defination it is not too expensive for me because I still buy it and maintain my standard of living for myself and my family.

If you are buy anything that is a luxury and then can't afford food/rent/bills/etc, then it's not that the item is too expensive, it's you who doesn't have a proper idea of budgeting. It is too expensive for you because you are choosing a luxury over a standard of living.

Prices change from year to year, a filght, hotel and food are more money than they were but you don't hear people who take a vacation every year complain that they are being priced out of their holiday.

TL;DR: Either you can afford it and you choose to buy it, or you can't. There's no such thing as buying something that is too expensive. You have to pay to play.

+1 to this

Both of you, optimusprime14 and 3eland, are missing the point of the "too expensive" complaint.

It's not that the cost has pushed consumers out of the market (though it has in some cases--look at Australia, for example).

The complaint, in essence, is that the product is not good value for money.

There are a very small number of people who can make the argument that GW is good value for money. It costs more; you get less. People still buy it; that's true. They play Eldar; they need Dire Avengers, and so they grudgingly pay for them. You can say that the Eldar player could choose not to, but he already has a considerable investment in the product, and abandoning that (and all the effort and memory involved) is a hard thing to do, and so he pay twice as much now for the same models.

Is he feeding the monster? Yes, he is. Is his complaining hypocritical? Sure. Does that mean GW is not "too expensive"? Only in the sense that our Eldar player can still afford to buy the Dire Avengers; not in the sense that those Dire Avengers cost what they should.

He also remembers when GW wasn't like this, and that makes him sad. And angry.

Thank you sorrow that was my point. I never said anything about GW stores or playing them, I just meant my local store. I understand how it works and know that it is what it is because of the increase. I personally don't think that GW is a bad company, this is just what I've heard. I don't have anything against it because I haven't even looked into it at all in so long. This all what I hear from players around my local gaming stores. Again I'm just trying to understand the mindset of the GW gamer? I felt like I was on trail here haha none of these opinions are my own. I don't care for GW and that's my opinion. I never once said a bad thing about the company, the models or anything like that. They are in fact very detailed and great looking models, I just choose not to play. All these things I have posted were from the mouths of other GW PLAYERS. I honestly could care less about GW as of now, I just keep hearing and reading these things.

The table thing was a feeling I get when I arrive at my local store. I feel that if you are not there to play 40k, they kind of look at you like you're crazy. Or they just don't give you a table to play other games. This is gamers, not the company. The company makes money and will continue to do so, I'm just wondering why if it is so bad(according to other people) why as sorrow put it,do we continue to "feed the beast" and enable this kind of increase?

I guarantee that if a large quantity of its players just stop buying, I'm sure they would rethink these policies. Will that happen? I don't think so

The Sheperd wrote:I'm just wondering why if it is so bad(according to other people) why as sorrow put it,do we continue to "feed the beast" and enable this kind of increase?

I'll speak for myself.

Once, long ago, a friend of my younger brothers brought over a disbound catalog--missing pages, pages folded, torn--ratty. But inside it were the most amazing things I had ever seen--skeleton warriors, halberdiers, dragons, knights.

It was an early Citadel miniatures catalog. I never forgot it. Sometime later, a different friend gave me a copy of the Warhammer 40k Rogue Trader book, and I devoured it. I read it cover to cover, backwards and forwards. It blew my mind that such a thing existed, AND that it was connected to that once-upon-a-time catalog of wonder.

GW had me then, and has me still.

I saved my allowance up for ages, and, with some Christmas money, I bought the 2nd Edition 40k box, with its mono-pose Marines and Goffs and Gretchin. I savagely beat my youngest brother using Vortex Grenades and a Jump Pack on my Space Marine Commander.

In college, I leaped into 3rd edition 40k and spent vast amounts of student loan money (still repaying) on everything the local GW store could sell me--Epic, Necromunda, and more and more Marines.

I pre-ordered Mordheim. I received the Mail Order flyers and so advance ordered a ton of stuff as it was first rolled out.

I bought the new Land Raider on the first day it was available. It was $55 and the most anticipated release in years. It was, in every sense of the word, awesome.

But things began to change. It wasn't obvious at first, but what came to be called Specialist Games disappeared from the shelves and became hard to get. Later, the same model would be repriced, up and up and up, until a $10 fig now is $30.

Specialist Games came in and then went out again. Prices continued to rise. The company became less responsive to inquiries about rules and game design (Andy Chamber had supported 3rd ed with "Chapter Approved").

New editions of 40k have been rolling out since 4th without any apparent reason. The game was changed each time, but the why was unclear.

Games Workshop has crowded out the independent retailers, throttling the means of distribution and the ability of the retailers to do their own thing.

Games Day used to be a good time--it was balls last year in Chicago.

I would not recommend to anyone that they start the game now.

It can still be fun, and there are still sweet models to be had. But I think the spirit of things has changed, and I don't like it. I have something like $20,000 in models and paraphernalia, so for me it's too late. What am I going to do? Part of me is that 10 year old kid leafing through a catalog.

So I don't buy new GW models anymore. I have bought rulebooks and whatnot, preferably from third parties. I look backwards for models, rather than forwards (my 4th ed Dark Elf army is almost complete). I do deals here.

And I hate GW, because I used to love them.

optimusprime14 wrote:Prices change from year to year, a filght, hotel and food are more money than they were but you don't hear people who take a vacation every year complain that they are being priced out of their holiday.

I actually DO say this...

s_o_r_r_o_w wrote:New editions of 40k have been rolling out since 4th without any apparent reason. The game was changed each time, but the why was unclear.

GW always updates their games every 4 years. Or has for quite some time.

pretre wrote: GW always updates their games every 4 years. Or has for quite some time.

40k:

6th: 2012
5th: 2008
4th: 2004
3rd: 1998
2nd: 1993
1st: 1987

Fantasy:

8th: 2010
7th: 2006
6th: 2000
5th: 1996
4th: 1992
3rd: 1987
2nd: 1984
1st: 1983

You're not wrong--but the idea that "GW always updates their games every 4 years" is sort of nonsense.

3rd ed 40k and 6th ed Fantasy both represented a sort of revolution at GW, which is why those editions lasted as long as they did. 3rd and 4th 40k were more of a 3 and 3.5 (and 6th and 7th WHFB had a similar relationship).

I guess what I'm saying is this: What was the point of 6th and 8th? By now, this company SHOULD HAVE IT DOWN. The only purpose of the new editions was to make every one of their customers buy new rulebooks. Not to fix problems, not to improve the game. Neither represents an advance in technology or game design--Fantasy in particular is a dog's breakfast, and 40k has a number of throwbacks while at the same time throwing in new random elements.

A new edition should be the result of an advance, or an expansion. Flyers come out; they get their own expansion, and then when the 4 year mark comes around, they get added into the core rules. Instead, we get a reboot, with various codices left bridging the gap between editions.

The point of the new editions was to make new editions. There's no surprise there.

Yeah, it hasn't always been exactly 4 years, but guess what? There will be new editions in 2014 and 2016.

Personally, I think 6th was an advance, but I also thought 5th was an advance. I'll probably enjoy 7th and think it advances things as well.

pretre wrote:The point of the new editions was to make new editions. There's no surprise there.

What does that even mean?

s_o_r_r_o_w wrote:

pretre wrote:The point of the new editions was to make new editions. There's no surprise there.

What does that even mean?

What that means is they now have a way to force exsisting consumers/players to buy the new rules or not be able to play the game and use the models they already bought. [and painted.]

The same as why some, if not all of the rpg's have new rules every few years.

Exactly. New editions happen because they are guaranteed cash. Thankfully, they also progress the game and inject new life into it (with the exception of the newest fantasy, from what I heard).