Bartertown.com

I just recently traded away some stuff for a bunch of elder on sprue, And im trying to trade away or sell the elder at a nice discount and NO ONE has shown interest. I am surprised.I mean especially since they have one of the newest codexs .

Has Eldar really taken a back seat again???

According to most people I've heard, or others I've read online; Eldar and Necrons are OP [overpowered].
It went as far as some places not allowing Eldar or Eldar in formations to be played.

Saying that, most Eldar players have been Eldar players and don't need much for models. There hasn't been many changes. Some of the new formations made specific models desirable or more desirable. The big push to buy Eldar happened right after the last/current codex was released.

Really depends on what you have and what you are trying to get rid of it for. From looking at your post, you have a good bike core there, and a random wraith knight thrown in. Not sure that people want that as you have it bundled.

Or everyone who wanted Eldar already got them.

Yeah like a Sam Hain army, jet bikes ,vypers, and a Brick to throw at em in the form of a wraith knight.

nightlord wrote:Has Eldar really taken a back seat again???

On the contrary! As kturock pointed out, the Eldar and Necrons are the beasts of 7th Edition.

It's not just raging neckbeards on the Internet, though; I have personally seen this in action at the last tournament I went to. The Eldar army has enormous cheese potential.

NuWishA wrote:From looking at your post, you have a good bike core there, and a random wraith knight thrown in. Not sure that people want that as you have it bundled.

I faced, in an 1850 point tournament, an army that had two bare-bones Wraithknights and four squads of jetbikes. If that doesn't sound like much, maybe you don't know how Gargantuan Creatures - which is what Wraithknights now count as - work. Consider this:

• Even bare-bones, at only 295 points, the Wraithknights have two Strength D Heavy Wraithcannons on their shoulders with a range of 36". Unlike an Imperial Knight, which at a minimum costs 75 points more than a Wraithknight, and who must get into assault in order to have a chance of hitting you with its "Destroyer" chainsword, the Wraithknight can hurl this at you from across the board - twice each turn!
• But if the Wraithknight does get into assault, he also counts his Stomp attacks at Strength D - which you'll only experience if you survive the Strength 10 hits he'll throw at you first, because, despite his "Gargantuan" size, as an Eldar the Wraithknight's Initiative (5) is probably higher than yours.
• Every jetbike in all four squads was armed with a heavy weapon. There were 10 shuriken cannons and 10 scatterlasers. Any unit that showed its face was dead; when the opponent fires 3-4 shots per model, can (potentially) re-roll to hit, and wounds on a 2+ (or 3+, but with a chance of an AP2 hit due to "Bladestorm"), you just can't make that many saves!
• Also, Guardians on jetbikes ("Windriders") are Troops, and may thus have the "Objective Secured" rule if taken in the proper formation - and who wouldn't? With a turbo-boost and a move during the assault phase, they can be pretty much anywhere they want in one turn to contest or take objectives.
• If you think your flyer is tough enough to survive the volume of fire the jetbikes could throw at it (the Farseer is ML3, and has access to two different powers that would allow them to re-roll and get those much-needed 6's!), hope that his Crimson Hunter doesn't show up from reserves. For only 160 points, this deadly aerial ace hits on a 2+, is armed with two brightlances and a pulse laser, and gets to re-roll failed armour penetration rolls against enemy flyers!

Don't even get me started on "Destroyer"-toting infantry loaded into Wave Serpents.

It could be, nightlord, that the buyers here have developed a conscience, or, as kturock suggested, the people who might otherwise be buying such units have already been ostracized from their groups for playing Eldar this way.

What I said was based on the codex's book formations requiring more stuff than just a wraith knight.

I used to have a fully wraith Iyanden army (before the current book murdered it), I'm aware how powerful they are now.

NuWishA wrote:I'm aware how powerful they are now.

What's crazy, although perhaps unsurprising, is that despite the Wraithknight's being a Lord of War, how many Eldar players can't seem to play without finding a way to bring two (or more!) of them to every game.

The lord of war slot doesn't really matter much anymore, as formations let you bring lots of them. I guess I could get to the right points with just wraith host things, but that doesn't seem much fun to me.

I actually think that, if you're fielding WKnights, you should field AT LEAST 2, if you are able.
My reasoning is not at all about cheese and all about metagame.

If you play a WKnight, you can guarantee that ALL of your opponent's available firepower will be focused on it until it's a smoldering pile. For most armies, that will be one turn of shooting, at best.
OKay. Maybe not MOST armies... but MANY... Especially the top tier.

So, if you take multiples, you might actually get the chance to use one.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:So, if you take multiples, you might actually get the chance to use one.

I don't think I'd have a problem with this if their points cost reflected what they can actually do. Even in a vacuum, 295 points is cheap for a Gargantuan Creature that fights like a super-heavy walker and can sling two D-strength shots across the board each turn. Combine that with the kind of psychic buffs that Farseers and Warlocks can easily provide and the support of extremely effective squadboyz to keep the rabble away, and you've got a winning combination every time. Your only fear need be the other Eldar players ... or maybe Necrons arranged in a Decurion formation.

Try that same set-up with Imperial Knights (two models plus supporting squadboyz in a tournament-sized army), and I bet you'll be wishing you had more models to play with - especially when one of the Knights explodes and takes all his nearby squadboyz with him!

psiekier wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:So, if you take multiples, you might actually get the chance to use one.

I don't think I'd have a problem with this if their points cost reflected what they can actually do. Even in a vacuum, 295 points is cheap for a Gargantuan Creature that fights like a super-heavy walker and can sling two D-strength shots across the board each turn. Combine that with the kind of psychic buffs that Farseers and Warlocks can easily provide and the support of extremely effective squadboyz to keep the rabble away, and you've got a winning combination every time. Your only fear need be the other Eldar players ... or maybe Necrons arranged in a Decurion formation.

That's the thing... It's 300ish each. I look at it as spending 600 points(ish) for about one and a half WKnights, because you'll be LUCKY to see two shooting phases with both models. So, really, that equates to 400 points.
Does my reasoning make sense (even if you disagree)?

psiekier wrote:Try that same set-up with Imperial Knights (two models plus supporting squadboyz in a tournament-sized army), and I bet you'll be wishing you had more models to play with - especially when one of the Knights explodes and takes all his nearby squadboyz with him!

This is a VERY valid point and, while I agree, it's kind of an apples and oranges comparison.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:That's the thing... It's 300ish each. I look at it as spending 600 points(ish) for about one and a half WKnights, because you'll be LUCKY to see two shooting phases with both models. So, really, that equates to 400 points.
Does my reasoning make sense (even if you disagree)?

Yes, but even with a 600-point investment, you'll have a substantial peanut gallery to support you in an 1850 point game. Raise the price to ~800 points, and you're going to have to make some difficult decisions.

MagickalMemories wrote:

psiekier wrote:Try that same set-up with Imperial Knights (two models plus supporting squadboyz in a tournament-sized army), and I bet you'll be wishing you had more models to play with - especially when one of the Knights explodes and takes all his nearby squadboyz with him!

This is a VERY valid point and, while I agree, it's kind of an apples and oranges comparison.

I don't really think it is:

• Both move like super-heavy walkers, allowing them to cover ground and close with or evade the enemy very rapidly; additionally, Wraithknights can ignore intervening terrain by jumping.
• Both have enough Wounds/Hull Points to shrug off many hits without a decrease in combat effectiveness.
• High Toughness/Armour Value make both virtually invulnerable to small arms fire. You need special or heavy weapons just to have a chance of hurting them.
• With "Stomp" and/or "Smash" (or a Destroyer chainsword), both are more than a match for any number of enemy squadboyz in melee, provided the enemy are not specially-equipped to deal with Knights.
• Potential for 4++ save; high Toughness on Wraithknights also allows "Feel No Pain" rolls against most unsaved wounds that hurt them.
• Can be armed with multiple big shootas, can target multiple enemy units each turn.

In my mind, the difference between the Knight and the Wraithknight comes down to what upgrades (if any) you are willing to buy and what units you choose to support them - and that's where the substantial delta in their points costs makes all the difference. Pay the extra 40 points to give a Knight a second big shoota with a Stormspear Rocket Pod, and he'll still be outgunned by the Wraithknight. If you back the Knight up with a Techmarine who will kiss his boo-boos each turn, you've got a very tough - but expensive customer. Just out of the shrinkwrap, a 295-point Wraithknight without any upgrades at all becomes all the more deadly if a nearby Eldar psyker uses powers that allow him to re-roll missed shots or regain lost Wounds. Emperor protect you if the Wraithknight has chosen a Suncannon and Scattershield and becomes the recipient of "Fortune"!

I'm not saying that the Wraithknight is ridiculously overpowered - there are valid tactics to use both with and against them - but I am saying that when compared to other models of similar capabilities and combined with other models normally found in its own army (i.e., you don't have to ally with anyone to reap unusual benefits), the Wraithknight is too cheap for what it can reliably be expected to do.

Remind me (because I'm at work and don't have access to any books)? I recall that the previous iteration of the WKnight could BUY an Invul save (at the expense of shooting), but did not come with one by default. Does the current iteration come with an Invul save by default? IMO, the Knight's 4+ save (even if it has a limited arc vs shooting) is pretty handy, especialy with the added bonus of the player being able to choose the facing at the opponent's shooting phase.

That said, I don't argue anything of what you're saying. We might, though, not be considering it under the same circumstances. I am considering it in the games I see, which tend to be 2000 points (occasionally higher, even) against very competent opponents and list builders. I would not call the guys I play against "average" gamers.

Eric

They don't have a natural one but can trade their Wraithcannons for either Sword and Shield or Suncannon and Shield.

MagickalMemories wrote:Remind me (because I'm at work and don't have access to any books)? I recall that the previous iteration of the WKnight could BUY an Invul save (at the expense of shooting), but did not come with one by default. Does the current iteration come with an Invul save by default?

In order to get the 4++ save, he has to trade in his two Heavy D-Cannons for a Suncannon and Scattershield. This does not cost any points. However, in 7th Edition, as a "Gargantuan Creature", the Wraithknight already benefits from "Feel No Pain"; since he has a nigh-vulnerable Toughness of 8, this gives him a 5+ save against just about anything that manages to wound him. Additionally, Gargantuan Creatures are immune to "Instant Death" in the same way super-heavies can not suffer a "Destroyed" result (they lose d3 Wounds/Hull Points instead), and are only injured by Sniper or Poisoned weapons on a "to wound" roll of '6'.

MagickalMemories wrote:IMO, the Knight's 4+ save (even if it has a limited arc vs shooting) is pretty handy, especialy with the added bonus of the player being able to choose the facing at the opponent's shooting phase.

It's great, provided all your enemies are between you and the shield. It does not work in close combat, however, nor does it protect you against Destroyer weapons (like Heavy Distortion Cannons) that roll a '6' to wound. Flyers, the bane of Knights since 6th Edition, also have the nasty habit of zooming in and shooting them on a facing that is not protected by the shield. If that flyer is a Crimson Hunter piloted by an Exarch, the Knight's pilot needs to start praying to The Emperor...

MagickalMemories wrote:That said, I don't argue anything of what you're saying. We might, though, not be considering it under the same circumstances. I am considering it in the games I see, which tend to be 2000 points (occasionally higher, even) against very competent opponents and list builders. I would not call the guys I play against "average" gamers.

Yeah, I saw (and faced) this horror in an 1850 point tournament. Of course, you're gonna pull out all the stops and bring your 'A' game to a tournament - especially one where top prize is credit at the sponsoring store - but it sure seems to me that this is an avenue not only open to abuse - it's practically required. IIRC, both Eldar armies I saw that day had two Wraithknights and a Crimson Hunter in them.