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So Gargantuans are easily accessible in every army (or a super-heavy equivalent).

I like to field large models (and in most cases are gargantuan or super-heavy) . I pay good money for them (and take a lot of time in building and painting them) and every army can take one so why not? But when is it fair to field them?

I can understand at low points it would be unfair. Like taking a Wraithknight at 1000-1250 points.

Does your gaming group put in a restriction for said slot (seeing how they are all LoW)? Horus Heresy has a restriction in place but I have never seen on for 40k.

What do people think? When do you think is an appropriate time to bring a Gargantuan/Super-Heavy?

Most folks I play with use ITC list formation, so one GC or LOW isn't usually a problem.

I think taking a gargantuan or ANYTHING with a D weapon is a bit of a d*ck move without giving your opponent fair warning, unless that's part of your group's established agreement.
I game in a group of 4 to 5 regulars. I have two standing PERSONAL rules...
1) If you play an Eldar Wraith army, congratulations. You win. I'm not even putting down my models.
2) If you play anything with a D weapon and don't warn me in advance, I may very well bow out and, even if I don't, do not expect me to enjoy the game.

My personal opinion is that D weapons are ONE OF the main things ruining 40K. I hate them and almost never use them. Yes, if you're reading this and thinking I sound a little pissy... you're right. I DO get pissy about D weapons.

Eric

Eric

I agree Eric. Communication is key when bringing a Gargantuan/Super-Heavy. Otherwise your opponent might show up with nothing that can hurt it.

We have a guy that has a Wraith army. He destroyed my Templars in two different games. Luckily my Sisters were able to take care of him by focusing everything on his Knight. By the time the mini-wraiths got across the board I had taken it down. But it was still pretty tough (especially with toe cover saves and it being a jumper).

Agreed on the D. Played a game with a Spartan, I had my HQ inside (Chappy in termie armour) with a fully loaded Crusader Squad (so not exactly a deathstar). First turn Strength D blew it up. 295 points, AV14 box with 5 HP and it didn't even get a chance to move lol. Second turn blew up a normal Land Raider (at least this one was able to move and shoot once).

Then I had to foot slog it across the battlefield while getting hit by Strength D flamers and shots.

However flavorful mini-D flamers might be as mechanically representing the power... those should never be in the game. I have no idea how infantry got that sort of power (well, I guess I do, but still think it's absurd).

However, IDK, how do people feel about D superheavies if both sides have one? I mean, isn't D basically the evolution of anti-titan weapons?

D I believe is the anti death star.

Bring a death star? Throw them the d!

You dont see many death stars now since sD shows up often. But at the same time it means that one side is usually more potent than the other.

In public games (so non friendly), you pretty much have to build a list with sD in mind.

One of my buddies took an army with 2 WKnights in it. For the heck of it, I built a Daemonkin list with Angr'rath (or whatever) in it to counter it.
Ol Angie took a (lucky, I admit) wound from a Scatter laser, 3 wounds (saved 3 of the 6) from a Wraithcannon that rolled in the 2-5 range on the D chart, then... 12(?) more from the second Cannon (whatever maximum is) when it rolled a 6 on the D chart.
That was turn 1. He never got to move.

Eric

That was from ONE Wraithknight.

Eric

Yeah I've seen that happen. When we play Apoc games we make sure we let each other know what is being brought.

The last game we played was 10,500 CSM/Daemons (me) vs 5,250 Eldar and 5,250 Space marines (mix of every chapter).

The Eldar player brought two Wraithknights and the Eldar Tank with the D cannons. Then the D artillery.

At the end of turn three they had 21 (ish) points to my 10 or something. The Eldar player scored 18-19 of said points. 15 -16 of those from the Wraithknights and tank/artillery.

He didn't even go full Wraith either. I don't think I would have survived two round if he had the mini-wraiths.

I went toe to toe with a melee knight once with Zarakynel (Slaanesh Exalted Daemon) and she wiped it off the board before it could attack back. Rerolling to hit and wound with high init/ws and all attacks instant death helped. I would not have survived the Strength D back I do not think.

If they changed the D chart (I know, again since it has already been changed) and allowed invul saves vs 6 I think it wouldn't be so powerful. D6+6 wounds with no save at all is enough to kill anything!

My thought is the shot/attack/whatever must be pretty explosive to be able to shatter through the defense of an invul shield summoned from the warp (or wherever it is summoned from). Crazy.

Yeah... the D table seems kinda' out of control. 1 in 6 chance that instead of super-killing something, you super-mega-kill it?

IDK, maybe it's to make it so titans can be killed over the course of a regular game? Then again, the warlord looks like there's not really much to be done about that volume of HP.

Well I can see it against say a Reaver Titan. I have a Reaver Titan. A Nurgle one (and yes I will admit that thing is stupid tough).

18 HP with a 5+ cover save (shrouded) in the open? Tough to beat. The 4 void shields are 4 "hull points" that can come back. So throwing a sD at them (after the void shields are down otherwise that would be pointless) can really help take it down. 7-12 HP on a 6, still means 2 lucky 6's needed.

Big things yes. Small things? Way overkill.

You also have a one in six chance of super not even scratching its paint.. Which is kind of funny (as it is what I usually roll with my Iyanden)

Then again, I only have an Iyanden army for eldar, I don't have any stupid guardians at all. So the only way I can play without unbound is just wraith host formations.. lol

I remember how irate people were about flyers at the start of 6th edition (largely the Helldrake). The proliferation of D-Weapons and superheavies is MUCH worse for the game, in my opinion. I've played 3 games now against a Knight Titan in 1500 points. I've killed in one of the three games - the other two, I've gotten it down to a single hull point.

It drives me nuts that there's no degradation of the thing - it's either fine or it's blowing up massively. (And in the game where I HAVE killed it, the Superheavy Explosion chart screwed me more than the Knight had all game)

I've also banned the Wraithknight from my home. It's not even remotely fun to play against, and after six games of it nearly single-handedly wrecking my army, I dropped the banhammer.

--Robert