Bartertown.com

First off, let me state for the record that this is directed at no one person, I wish to get no one in trouble with the community, I merely wish to see If I have been out of line in my cautiousness.

Recently I have had a few people who have balked at my "You have a very low rating (Under 10, mostly 0's and 2-4 ranges) so I would prefer if you ship first, so that I can verify the package and its contents before shipping myself." requirements.

I have been burned once on... questionable representation of an item, I worked it out with the guy because what he had said was techniccly true, but it lead to alot of additional work on my part to fix the models that were "Assembled and unpainted", but assembled with gobs of superglue, and Incorrectly to boot. Dealable with, but more work than I had been expecting.

Some people seem to take offence at this, even mentioning that they have several other trades going thru bartertown as we speak, all of which didnt require them to ship first. To me, that is nebulous at best, as I know nothing of those deals, and dont even know if they took place. Telling me that I should trust you on other peoples deals that may or may not be happening doesnt make me trust you on OUR deal.

Now, in reality, half the people + that I have delt with have required me to ship first. Since I do, even now, have a low rating (but working on it!), I tend to go along if they have a signifigantly higher rating, say at least double mine, Ill go along without even commenting. If its close, I tend to prefer simo if possible, but in general, if they are higher, ive given them the benifit of the doubt.

I had one person tell me today "The policy is more for not getting your figs and not for being able to handle em before you decide to ship your stuff out.". Actually, to me, thats EXACTLY what its supposed to be. That I have the item IN HAND, and VERIFIED THAT IT EXISTS, before risking my own goods, because in the community, at least, I have more feedback and community trust.

Am I seriously out of line on this one? Would appreciate input on this. Would prefer no flaming of me, you wont nessecarily get me to even change my stance, but I would like to know peoples feelings on it all.

Again, not attacking anyone in particular, not naming names for a reason, not trying to get anyone a bad mark in the community, and I will share the specific information with NOBODY but the admins, and with them only upon request.

Thank you,

-E

I always try to ship simo. regardless of "status". If it comes down to the other individual making a big deal about me shipping first, then I don't mind shipping, providing they have a higher rateing then I currently do.

However, I see no flaw in your reasoning. To each his own I believe the saying goes.

Mat :shock:

No, E. You are not wrong at all.
Let me tell you some things.

I have turned around no less than 3 deals and returned them to the original sender, canceling the deal, because of how the items arrived to me.

One was gobby glue (His thought: Buyer Beware My though: No way. Truth in advertising)

One was terrain -- pieces arrived broken and coming apart

One was bits: I said I was looking for certain "on sprue" pieces. he emailed and said he had what I wanted. he shipped first and it looked, LITERALLY, like he pulled them right off of the tank... painted poorly and all.

That is why I stick to my guns.

Keep in mind though, that even high rating traders have poor practices at times.

I had one guy in Canada promise a simu-ship. His rating was only 20 or so lower than mine (very respectable 60's to 70's). I shipped mine but his never arrived.
many emailes (and many unanswered emails) later, his package arrived... and the post date was about a week or so AFTER he emailed that he'd received mine. So, it wasn't customs' fault.

My point?
No matter WHO it is, cover your butt...
... and document EVERYTHING.

If you are not comfortable with it, then cover yourself. Watch your own back. I don't know many traders who will put your interests before their own.

Hmm... I may have been going on a bit of a tangent there. Let me refocus...

I had one person tell me today "The policy is more for not getting your figs and not for being able to handle em before you decide to ship your stuff out.". Actually, to me, thats EXACTLY what its supposed to be. That I have the item IN HAND, and VERIFIED THAT IT EXISTS, before risking my own goods, because in the community, at least, I have more feedback and community trust.

If it was a newbie, tell him to Bite You. He doesn't know what he's talking about. the idea of having someone else ship first is so that (usually) the more reputable trader can ensure that the less reputable one is sending what is promised, when it is promised, in the condition it is promised/

---By "less reputable," I am speaking STRICTLY about the feedback numbers. The PROVEN reputation--

People who take that point of view usually have something they wantto hide.

Eric

I've never been burned yet, but yours is a healthy philosophy. As much as I might want a particular trade, if someone's being really twitchy about who sends first or somesuch, there's nothing wrong with that being a dealbreaker.

People, being able to supply pictures is one of the most useful tools available. Being completely honest and up-front in your descriptions is another (I could've not mentioned those loose pages and blamed poor postal handling, coldn't I?)

Just a note, Im always willing to give pics, Thou sometimes if the batterys are dead I tell them I will need a day to recharge the batterys

-E

I have gotten to the point that I won't ship first except to the very few people with a higher rating than me. If they are way higher, I assume that I will be sending first, but I always ask for a simultaneous ship. If they refuse, I happily send my stuff, knowing that they will come through.

A couple of exceptions:

I have traded with you in the past or

You have traded successfully with someone I trust and have made multiple trades with.

Then and only then will I send at the same time.

I know I have lost out on deals because I insist that the other party ship first, but my theory is a deal lost because of that is far better then ever sending money or my stuff first (or supposedly at the same time) and not getting anything out of it.

Better safe than sorry.

You are not out of line and should insist that anyone who has a rating less than 10 send to you first. You have at least twice as many transactions and probably 3 times as many posts here in Bartertown. Better to lose out then get burned. See the bad trader section to get a feel for how bad that is.

Luckily, I have not had one bad trade that resulted in problems. I did have one transaction that somehow resulted in both of our packages not arriving. We eventually agreed that we were just out of luck and both suffered a loss. I still think he was BSing me, but eehhh - whatever.

My method has pretty much worked well for me.

Good Luck!!!

Ekister

I've been lucky so far and haven't had any bad trades. I also haven't had to lose any trades, but that's more due to me not yet dealing with someone who didn't like shipping first.

I'm in the same boat you are E - I'm working on my Feedback rating, but there are PLENTY of people out there with higher ratings. If someone's feedback is less than 20, I will expect them to ship first. If someone's feedback is more than ~20 higher than mine, I will expect ME to ship first. Pictures are nice, and I'll definately be asking for them and offering to supply them - but even so, I'll stick to my guns on who ships first. I really doubt anyone here means that to be a negative or a put-down on a newer trader, it's simply the commonly accepted method of trading. If they can't accept that, then I'm sorry but it's not my fault and I'm not going to let it be my problem.

Next time you run into someone that doesn't let it, you can tell them "This isn't personal against you, it's simply my policy to protect myself and the other trader. I'm sorry if you take offense at it - that isn't my intention. If you don't agree to ship first, then lets simply cancel the trade and go on about our business." Bottom line E: No, you're not out of line and like MM and Ek, I encourage you to stick to your guns.

-Dwarf

Enigma, you are SPOT ON. That's precisely what the trade refs are for. I had to do it for quite some time to build up the refs I have, and thus everyone has to earn it.

There's a few deals where I haven't insisted on someone sending first, only to find lousy condition models. Salvageable, but a lot of work....

The only thing that I have to add to this, is in regards to eBay references....... WHO CARES?!?!!?!? I have no way of verifying what someones ebay account is and if it is truly the same person as here. It is also a whole different type of transaction going on there that has nothing to do with deals here. I don't give a rats behind if your ebay refs are 16,836,263 and at 100.95% positive. If you have less than 20 here you have a lot of stuff to prove still.....

So stick to your guns Enigma! You're "in the right!"

Noise

robynln wrote:I have to say that I would have a major problem with any "trader" who would "require" me to ship first!

Such a request would smell like a rip off to me! Bartertown does not have Safeguard services to ensure that both sides are bargaining in good faith, so references (from all sources) and correspondences are our only verification of reliablity prior to trades.

FWIW
Robyn
Bartertown Rating of 10 for over 3 years!!

I can see where you are coming from. But how could I possibly verify you are who you say you are on eBay? If you can come up with a reliable method, I may consider it.

But like was said here, even with your 10 references, I don't know you and don't know if you're an alias of Steve Jones or Jason Ticknor. If the deal was large enough I would certainly expect you to ship first. (Large enough being $50+)

Thats your perogative Robynln. However, your 10 Feedback on bartertown amounts to 5 trades. IMO, 5 trades really doesn't set any sort of reliable precedent for whether or not someone is going to be a reliable trader. Steve Jones (bane of traders everywhere) had at least a 10 rating on several of his accounts before he got ripped someone off and got caught again.

As 'Monger said, there's absolutely no realistic way of verifying who someone is on Ebay. Even if there was, the situation is too dissimilar. On Ebay, you're either buying or selling. The Buyer ALWAYS pays first, and the shipper doesn't ship until payment is received. Doesn't matter if (as was mentioned) your feedback is 16,000 and you have over 100% positive feedbacks you STILL pay first if you're the buyer.

On Bartertown you're generally trading. I'm giving you YXZand you're giving me ABC in exchange. If I was a Seller, I could simply say I'll send when I've received your payment and not before (similar to Ebay). However, when it comes to trading, unless your TRADE references (not buy/sell references on Ebay - they have absolutely no bearing on TRADING) feedback is high enough for the other side to feel comfortable assuming that you'll honor your half, then they have every right to ask you to ship first if their feedback is high enough to prove them a reliable trader. If you don't like that I'm truely sorry, but despite your contentions otherwise Bartertown's trade system really does work fairly well if BOTH sides stick to it. And part of that system is that the person with the lowest feedback ships first.

Your Ebay rating on Ebay works well for Ebay, not here. Just like your Bartertown rating doesn't mean anything on Ebay. Two completely different systems.

-Dwarf

Noise!

Not trying to troll, so removing self from the discussion!

I have t agree with both Brian and War. Ebay references are hard to say who's who. If you've only got 10 points (5 Trades) and ive got a ref number of 44, I will expect you to send first. I don't really care how many deals you have on ebay. That's ebay. This is B-Town.

Lower Ref ships first, that's how it is. That's how it's been since I started coming here. Simple as that.

The simple fact that you can see how long we've been trading by checking our references is available. Want to check my email. Have fun, it's a yahoo account that I've had for nigh on 6 years. AIM s/n, about 5 years. AND, it's the same as my s/n here.

Most people DO place such disclaimers in their ads. Course, if you're going to refuse to read our ads based solely on your refusal to follow the generally accepted Bartertown policies, then you'll probably never see those disclaimers.

BTW, you mentioned that "Such a request would smell like a rip off to me!" in one of your posts. And then you say "I will make sure I never waste my time looking through your listing because I can't trust you." Well, I'm sure that if you've been on Bartertown for 3 years, that you read the rules at SOME point. (You DO read those, don't you?) The rules do state that it's generally accepted for the person with the lower feedback to ship first. And if you're refusing that on ANY grounds (let alone the grounds that Ebay ratings count for anything here - another myth that the rules debunk), then I would contend that your refusal to abide by the generally accepted practices of the Bartertown Community would tend to make most other traders think YOU were the one attempting to perpetuate a rip off.

If you don't wish to ship first despite only having 5 trades to your name, that's certainly your decision. But if people refuse to trade with you based on that, don't think for one single solitary second it's because they're trying to rip you off. It's more likely because they don't know you at all and they're trying to protect themselves from you ripping them off. Which (to get back to the original subject) is what E was trying to do, and was fully within his rights - and this is exactly why.

-Dwarf

robynln wrote:This is also the reason why I'm more willing to buy product from someone as long as they accept paypal, because then if they attempt to rip me off I have recourse through Paypal for fraud.

One nice thing about you guys starting this thread, is that I will make sure I never waste my time looking through your listing because I can't trust you.

Have you ever actually tried to get recourse through Payapl? Buyer beware, Paypal loves their sellers......

Look at my refs, I have a number of deals that are large army sized deals of $300 +. And you want to accuse ME of trying to rip you off????

Puhleeze. I look forward to never having you answer my ads.