GW's continued scam [rant]

[EZ mac]

If this is a rant (which this topic is right? a rant about GW) then how does saying what i actually think not valid in the argument?

I have listed several reasons for my dislike of GW and some reasons why i like them and even one reason how i think the game would become better

here is my fundamental list of pros verse cons for GW and then one for pp

-GW-
pro-
1.large gaming community and the ability to play anywhere in the world
2.random side games (necromunda, man-o-war, bloodbowl, ect) that are fun
3.Decent paint lines
4.a huge amount of fluff and source books along with a library of novels
5.Awesome miniatures (doom bell? yeah really nice!)
6.simple rules for 12yr olds to play

cons-
1.cost wise an army is a huge strain
2.new rule books fairly frequently (2 yrs? i think that was what it was) that cost now $57.75ea
3.no FAQ (maybe 6+months late)
4.no real long term support for those random games
5.no bits order anymore (bitz pack go so far)
6.power creep SEEMS to happen from one book to another
7.lots of direct order only things


-Privateer press-
pros-
1.much cheaper to do a 35point list (or whatever 500 points is supposed to be now)
2.have a faq
3.have a bits order
4.rules come out for everyone at once (cards are being released at once) so no power creep
5.made a board game for grind (only real spin off besides infernal contraption)
6.only has a few direct order only models
7.system has a bit more variability (my stat verse yours with these modifiers but on nd6 for each model)
8.ITS AMERICAN AND SO ITS PATRIOTIC TO LIKE THEM!!! (<----please dont take that serrious!)

-cons-
1.not as big as GW so not played as much, not in as many venues, ect
2.took a long time to go plastic
3.model price is steadily getting more expensive
4.little fluff besides in rulebooks and iron kingdom rpg books



Those are my general complaints against Games workshop and seance i have been playing both (just before escalation) or started 40k in early 3rd ed and havent really seen them improve too much from edition to edition.

please feel free to look through and coment on each individually but i think if GW were to fix one or three of the above reasons id love them sooo much more, i really really really want to like them more than PP i have several thousand dollars invested with them but i just dont think i can like them as much as pp with the above reasons.

[MagickalMemories]

Minis/models unsuable in GW rules as of right now:
Squats, Chaos Dwarves, Hybrid Genestealers, imperial guard jet bikes, at least half a dozen named characters.

[Devil's advocate]

How are ANY of those unusable?
Got squats? IG has a new codex, and those trikes would make spectacular Rough Riders.
Chaos Dwarves? Well, I don't play fantasy, but I'd imagine they could proxy SOMETHING "chaosy."

Hybrid Genestealers? Use 'em as a posse for your Brood Lord... or in your Renegade IG army as Veterans.

IG jet bikes? Rough Riders.

Named characters can become generic Commissars, Lt's, Etc.
Maybe you can't use the RULES that were originally meant for 'em, but you can still use the minis.

That's what "Counts as" is all about.

[/Devil's Advocate]

Eric

[GMMStudios]

Minis/models unsuable in GW rules as of right now:
Squats, Chaos Dwarves, Hybrid Genestealers, imperial guard jet bikes, at least half a dozen named characters.

[Devil's advocate]

How are ANY of those unusable?
Got squats? IG has a new codex, and those trikes would make spectacular Rough Riders.
Chaos Dwarves? Well, I don't play fantasy, but I'd imagine they could proxy SOMETHING "chaosy."

Hybrid Genestealers? Use 'em as a posse for your Brood Lord... or in your Renegade IG army as Veterans.

IG jet bikes? Rough Riders.

Named characters can become generic Commissars, Lt's, Etc.
Maybe you can't use the RULES that were originally meant for 'em, but you can still use the minis.

That's what "Counts as" is all about.

[/Devil's Advocate]

Eric

Exactly!

[blackspade]

I would also like to point out that PP doesn't allow proxies of any sort. (IK figs anyone?)
GW on the other hand encourages it.

I have big issues with both companies. GW has been around for a long time and has accumulated a lot of gaming community anger.
However, PP has started to generate so much in such a short time that I think that they may start slipping in the market soon.

[kturock]

I've replied to this 3 times, and the crappy pos router at work keeps disconnecting.

Short version.
MM, I expect flawed logic from some of the others here, but you?

Proxy? How about 'footprints'? You know, base size and model height?

Proxies aren't allowed in GW sanctioned events, even at local levels.

If you're going to proxie; just buy discontinued clix and save time painting and $.

Minis/models unsuable in GW rules as of right now:
Squats, Chaos Dwarves, Hybrid Genestealers, imperial guard jet bikes, at least half a dozen named characters.

[Devil's advocate]

How are ANY of those unusable?
Got squats? IG has a new codex, and those trikes would make spectacular Rough Riders.
Chaos Dwarves? Well, I don't play fantasy, but I'd imagine they could proxy SOMETHING "chaosy."

Hybrid Genestealers? Use 'em as a posse for your Brood Lord... or in your Renegade IG army as Veterans.

IG jet bikes? Rough Riders.

Named characters can become generic Commissars, Lt's, Etc.
Maybe you can't use the RULES that were originally meant for 'em, but you can still use the minis.

That's what "Counts as" is all about.

[/Devil's Advocate]

Eric

[HarlequinZero]

I've replied to this 3 times, and the crappy pos router at work keeps disconnecting.

Short version.
MM, I expect flawed logic from some of the others here, but you?

Proxy? How about 'footprints'? You know, base size and model height?

Proxies aren't allowed in GW sanctioned events, even at local levels.

If you're going to proxie; just buy discontinued clix and save time painting and $.

Umm...I think MM is right on this one. I've never seen a GW event that didn't OK proxies as long as they were relatively similar to the original. I see people make IG out of all kinds of models from 40K and Fantasy. It's one of the big draws for a lot of people who play IG. I've seen a gamer use a Forgeworld Great Unclean One is a GW tourney before and that guy is quite a bit larger than the standard Great Unclean One. I think you're pulling at straws here. Also, I don't know where you get MM saying anything about using proxies from other companies. Every one of his examples was for OOP GW minis. GW doesn't allow that and neither does PP as far as I'm aware.

[kturock]

ok.. what would you proxy a Doomwheel as? [yes I know it's now back, but for the last 2-3 years it wasn't]

My point at MM is, wtf is going to use a $15-20 named character mini as a $5 generic.

His logic was truely reaching. It ignored all the problems with GW and streaches to find some use of the minis, when GW won't even bother.
It reminds me of a used car salesman selling a lemon; "That's not a hole in the convertible top, it's air conditioning."

[GMMStudios]

I don't think it is reaching at all. Some of the best armies I have seen use counts as. Its creativity.

In fact I started a grey knight army and am now selling it because I dont like how the whole army is "by the book." There is nothing I can do to this army that can make it unique outside of the paint. In my Krieg army I have dogs to count as troopers, renegades that tote plasma for them (has to do with the fluff).

I think your thinking is just too confined and negative. It isnt that your viewpoint is wrong its just too grumpy and negative and closed minded

[Adunaphel]

My point at MM is, wtf is going to use a $15-20 named character mini as a $5 generic.

Um.... Anybody who already BOUGHT it and doesn't want to go out and buy another when they can just use the one they have.

Eric's logic is fine. You can use almost ALL of the stuff he/kturock listed in one way or another. The Chaos Dwarves might be the toughest, but an enterprising gamer could probably use them in a fantasy Chaos army. Another use for Chaos Dwarves might be in Bloodbowl or Mordheim games. There is a LOT of leeway in Mordheim warbands as far as using various models.

Now, kturock, you have a point about the doomwheel. There is not much you could use the old one for while it was out in GW's Island of misfit toys. Maybe as a terrain piece...

JohnHwang had it right when he mentioned just keeping what you have and using it where you can as much as possible.

But, on the whole, I don't see any reason that you can't use most of the stuff that GW has left behind in one form or another. And as for all the GW vs. PP talk, it sounds alot like Ford/Chevy talk. If you like one over the other, cool. If you don't like one much, fine. Trying to sway the opposite side probably isn't gonna do much good.

[GMMStudios]

Think of it this way -

When you were a kid, and outside playing Dodge Ball with one of those rubber balls, and the teacher said no more dodge ball kids are getting hurt (or whatever). Did you sit on the ball, pop it and throw it over the fence, or did it suddenly become a basketball, despite not being intended for one, but for inventive kids its just fine and dandy and the world keeps turning.

[kturock]

You bought because it looked cool and has WYSIWYG parts. Now WYS is not useable.
Who wants to buy my mini with 2 powerfists? anyone?

I didn't say to buy a new one.

Yup, I love spending $25 for a piece of terrain.

Then mixing fantasy minis for mordheim or BB is really reaching to support an arguement.
We're talking GW CORE GAMEs.

I'm not talking PP vs GW.
My rant is how GW is, and always has, said screw the consumer. We'll keep relasing half-assed rules for our kool minis; and sue anyone who comes up with better rules.

It took them over 10 years just to replace damaged minis you bought directly from them. They still don't replace broken minis from retailers. [Don't even mention online sales to them.]

They started off as gamers tryiong to write rules. Now they're bussimen pretending to be gamers. Bottom line 1st. Public opinion last.

If you want to try to justify why you still support them since they don't give a crap about you as a buyer or you as retailer, go ahead. They'll keep taking your $. There is a saying about a fools and $.

My point at MM is, wtf is going to use a $15-20 named character mini as a $5 generic.

Um.... Anybody who already BOUGHT it and doesn't want to go out and buy another when they can just use the one they have.

Eric's logic is fine. You can use almost ALL of the stuff he/kturock listed in one way or another. The Chaos Dwarves might be the toughest, but an enterprising gamer could probably use them in a fantasy Chaos army. Another use for Chaos Dwarves might be in Bloodbowl or Mordheim games. There is a LOT of leeway in Mordheim warbands as far as using various models.

Now, kturock, you have a point about the doomwheel. There is not much you could use the old one for while it was out in GW's Island of misfit toys. Maybe as a terrain piece...

JohnHwang had it right when he mentioned just keeping what you have and using it where you can as much as possible.

But, on the whole, I don't see any reason that you can't use most of the stuff that GW has left behind in one form or another. And as for all the GW vs. PP talk, it sounds alot like Ford/Chevy talk. If you like one over the other, cool. If you don't like one much, fine. Trying to sway the opposite side probably isn't gonna do much good.

[kturock]

Think of it this way -

When you were a kid, and outside playing Dodge Ball with one of those rubber balls, and the teacher said no more dodge ball kids are getting hurt (or whatever). Did you sit on the ball, pop it and throw it over the fence, or did it suddenly become a basketball, despite not being intended for one, but for inventive kids its just fine and dandy and the world keeps turning.

and if someone took your dodgeball, and gave you a rock instead; and said these are the new rules, oh and we get to throw it 1st and you can't move, you'd use it?

[Adunaphel]

It took them over 10 years just to replace damaged minis you bought directly from them. They still don't replace broken minis from retailers. [Don't even mention online sales to them.]

I am not sure what you are talking about here. I have NEVER had a problem getting replacements from GW. In fact, recently I bought an AoBR box that was missing a couple of Ork items and GW sent me a WHOLE AoBR box within a week. I am sure that I will get hit with all kinds of negatives about me saying this, but that has been my experience with GW.

And, I don't know how you can call it stretching things to use items that you paid for in whatever manner that you see fit. And if you have played GW's three "Main" games, then you owe it to yourself to at least check out the "specialist" games. Of course, people gripe about them because GW doesn't do anything with them. Kind of funny when you think about it.

And kturock, I wasn't singling you out about the GW/PP thing. I just read a couple of comments that just reminded me of some Ford/Chevy boards that I have seen.

As for the ruleset, if you don't like the new rules then what can you say. YOU don't like them. That doesn't mean that everybody else doesn't like them...

I have only played 40K since 3rd edition and the rules are fairly consistant with tweaks. I have an older rulebook, but I haven't delved too much into it. I played WFB back when it had the magic cards. The newer editions of it are FAR nicer (IMO). Granted, I don't like the new magic all that much, but overall it is better. If you don't like changes to the ruleset and have some older GW figures, check out the specialist games. There is some good gaming stuff going on there.

Karl

[GMMStudios]

Think of it this way -

When you were a kid, and outside playing Dodge Ball with one of those rubber balls, and the teacher said no more dodge ball kids are getting hurt (or whatever). Did you sit on the ball, pop it and throw it over the fence, or did it suddenly become a basketball, despite not being intended for one, but for inventive kids its just fine and dandy and the world keeps turning.

and if someone took your dodgeball, and gave you a rock instead; and said these are the new rules, oh and we get to throw it 1st and you can't move, you'd use it?

Um, what?

That doesnt make any sense. Are you saying the crappy metal models of old were BETTER than this awesome plastic stuff?? You would rather have old one eye than a plastic carnie? Thats not GWs fault that you arent the common consumer. And they are a big business, if you arent their common money hander over, then no they dont care about you. Otherwise they would be out of business.

I think you see this whole thing as a big conspiracy that GW hates everyone, and wants to go out of business, but its just the type of player you represent, the one that hates change and doesnt understand that a business is (of course) going to look out for itself first.

You bought because it looked cool and has WYSIWYG parts. Now WYS is not useable.
Who wants to buy my mini with 2 powerfists? anyone?

What? You dont even have to proxy that anymore. Its in the rules.

My rant is how GW is, and always has, said screw the consumer. We'll keep relasing half-assed rules for our kool minis; and sue anyone who comes up with better rules.

So? Since when is every corporation supposed to be Salvation Army? Its this way with every business, its there to make money first. If it is a crappy company and they really do like to punish their customers, they will just fail. Market tends to give business exactly what it deserves.

It took them over 10 years just to replace damaged minis you bought directly from them. They still don't replace broken minis from retailers. [Don't even mention online sales to them.

Playing devils advocate - so what? There are a lot of people that try and get free stuff by lying about broken minis. Dont blame them one bit!

They started off as gamers tryiong to write rules. Now they're bussimen pretending to be gamers. Bottom line 1st. Public opinion last.

Welcome to America? I dunno. Its not a bad thing. As I said the market will naturally punish bad companies, so I dont worry about it.

[bluemeenie]

Honestly, I think the only people who might have a pot to piss in, in any of the above arguments are people like myself and my buddy, who were playing 40k from it's inception and spent 100's of dollars on the old 40 man box sets and blue blister packs for specials...

I had 10,000 pts of Orcs and my buddy had 15,000 points of Space Wolves and used to model our guys based off that D100 loot table and have great if not really long planed out games.


3rd or 4th (can't remember which) edition came out and completely distroyed any simbolance of how those armies functioned and what they could use....

I went from a clan based organization to just huge mobs with really no affiliation, and all my plasma guns, shokk attack guns, lifta droppas and plusa rokkits I had been creating and modeling since the late 80's were useless..

The same with his wolf army...he spend 3 weeks trying to remodel sgt's and commanders to meet the new rules and buying bitz and just finally said F' it and boxed the army up and started a SOB army.



Now 20 years later we are back to hints of the clans, and the SAG is back but my 10,000 points are long gone except for a few gretchin dread I still have...


Heck I even have a couple of madboyz blisters hanging around, and I got all excited about the blurb they put in the new rule book in the revamped psyker section this last release only to be let down with no actual mention in the army list...man I had like a 20 man mad boy squad that used to be the best fun on the table before I sold my entire army...

so really...the only people with water in this argument are the few that have been with the hobby since it's inception..but TBH I'm not as upset anymore since the new plastics came out...

That wasn't the case 7 years ago when really all the models were pewter not really cool looking and they started charging by points of the model and not actually cost of materials.

I didn't buy a new GW mini for that entire period for 40k (didn't play 40k as I sold my old army) I was just completely a fantasy player as I used my new cash for an O&G army that really hasn't changed too drastically over the years.