GW's continued scam [rant]

[kturock]

I think to base of my rant was misunderstood. Not that GW plans on dropping minis/armies/races then to bring them up later; but to drop things in mid-stride due to no foresight in the business model.
They have no customer support once the item leaves the store. "once you buy a prize, it's your's to keep."

As was pointed out, they have constantly lacked in keeping/bringing all armies up to date, before releasing the newest version of a game.
orks weren't updated for 40k in 2-3 editions.

It's a lack of competence, not a conspirancy. Yes they need to keep releasing new things to make money; but not to release the same things over and over and ignore others.

The specialist games have never been supported, long before LoTR. From epic to current.

I think it's actually ironinc that GW got the Official license for LoTR. They copied it since the 1980's. [yes I know so did D&D and TSR in the US]. I also think it's ironic [or sad] that they're so strict on copyright and IP infringment, when that's how they started their company.

All of fantasy was copied from LoTR.
40k started as LoTR in space.
Genestealers were copied from the Alien movies, and the ROM Spaceknight comic book.
Necrons were copied from the terminator idea.
Tau is inspired by Anime and is about the only thing close to an original idea.
Yes Space Marines are mostly original.
Skaven also.
So 2-3 armies out of 10.


They could have easily released every army book/codex for each race, with minor changes, rather than not releasing them at all. Look at the 'assassins' book that was released. It probably lost money, because it wasn't really usable. If they released the 'updates' like that for every army, then it would've showed support.

This is just a brief reply since I have to get back to work.

[Lord Alaric]

I think to base of my rant was misunderstood. Not that GW plans on dropping minis/armies/races then to bring them up later; but to drop things in mid-stride due to no foresight in the business model.
They have no customer support once the item leaves the store. "once you buy a prize, it's your's to keep."

As was pointed out, they have constantly lacked in keeping/bringing all armies up to date, before releasing the newest version of a game.
orks weren't updated for 40k in 2-3 editions.

It's a lack of competence, not a conspirancy. Yes they need to keep releasing new things to make money; but not to release the same things over and over and ignore others.

The specialist games have never been supported, long before LoTR. From epic to current.

I do see your point and am only trying to expand on it. Another example would be the Steel Legion(even though I did like the sculpts) and Vostroyan(hated the sculpts) IG lines. They never released all available options to finish the lines up. Which, quite honestly in my opinion, the resources could have been better spent elsewhere, like possibly another plastic IG regiment like maybe the Tallarn,Mordians,or god forbid, update another existing army which may not have received any updates for awhile.

Actually, LotR is NOT a specialist game, but it is the reason why there has been no real support for specialist games since it's release. GW used to have a system where they had the two "core" games and then roughly every two years they'd (re)release a specialist game. (It was kind of like the Olympics and the Winter Olympics. A new version of a core game was the Olympics and a new specialist game was the winter olympics. So they had something new rotating every two years. That was the plan anyway.) When GW was given the opportunity to get the rights to LotR they made the decision that it wasn't viable to support three "core" games and still keep up the specialist games. So the real demon you should be attacking is LotR and whoever decided that picking up that game was a good idea. I think LotR was an absolutely horrible move and I think it's just becoming worse as they try to turn it into a mass battles game. At least Fellowship of the Ring offered something distinct from Fantasy. Now the War of the Ring, while the underlying mechanics are quite different, is just adding another fantasy mass combat game. Why do they need two fantasy mass combat games? The simple answer is: they don't, but GW is trying to milk every last cent out of the license. Even if gamers are becoming very disenchanted with LotR the guys in suits can't see past the fact that LotR the brand is huge.

Buuuut...let's get back to the original topic that kturock brought up. As far as GW getting rid of stuff only to bring it back several years later I think it's got a lot less to do with planning than you might think. They DO make changes designed to boost sales of models, but thinking so far ahead as to make something obsolete or to outright retire it with thoughts of later bringing it back is far too much future thinking for GW.

I know that LotR is not really a "specialist" game, and they do consider it a core game. And I agree that they don't need another mass combat fantasy system going. The whole point behind my opinion is that the resources they are spending on it could be better spent elsewhere.

As you've pointed out, with a very good analogy, is that every couple of years they would re-release a "specialist" game, sometimes without really updating it. Which is in essence a quick cash grab, then they stop supporting it AGAIN. I'm not saying that it's a conspiracy with the discontinuing of some models, the bringing them back a couple of years later, I just think that if they're going to release something with their name on it, and go to great lengths to protect their precious IP, they need to stick by it. The old saying of "If something's worth doing, do it right" would apply here.

I think that my overall point is that they aren't listening to the gaming community, which I think would be important to them considering we are the ones that spend our hard earned money on their products and keep them in business. They could learn a big lesson from Privateer Press. For example, PP has a forum on their site for you(the consumer) to use, they give you(the consumer) previews of what is to come for their miniature range months in advance, and the big guys themselves come on the forums from time to time and even post responses to our inquires and comments, and even give painting tips and advice. Even though some of us may not agree with some of their decisions, they are at least interacting with their player base. Anyways, I'm not trying to hi-jack the thread that Kturock started, or stray off topic, I'm just trying to expand on his original point with my own opinion.

[HarlequinZero]

The specialist games have never been supported, long before LoTR. From epic to current.

This is both true and untrue. It's true they weren't really supported, but it was also purposeful in that any given specialist game was never intended to live past it's two year cycle. When something became really popular, (Necromunda or Bloodbowl for example,) they would tend to keep the models available, but for the most part there was no official support for the game. You just had the Fanatic press books for quasi-support. And on occasion, (also using Necromunda and Bloodbowl for examples,) if something sustained its popularity GW would decide not to release a new specialist game for a slot, but re-release an oldie. So it's not that they weren't supported out of spite or lack of foresight, it was the business model for the side games. They were released to draw interest and get players to open their pocketbooks for what was supposed to be a short lived thing while GW was in the middle of the lull between core game revisions. I'm not saying it's right or not, I'm just saying that GW had never intended to keep permanent support of their non-core games.

I mean, just think of it, if your LGS was still stocking 40K and Fantasy in addition to Mordheim, Necro, Bloodbowl, BFG, Warmaster, Epic, Man-O-War, Dark Future, Gorkamorka, Bombers over the Sulfur River, etc...ad nauseum... they'd need double the store space and still not have enough space to stock anything not made by GW. Even for GW to offer support for all of these games via direct sales would be a logistical nightmare to keep all of those molds and bits in constant, current rotation. They'd need an entire division of employees just to manage it.

Just to use the old bits archive as an example. I used to work for GW back in the late 90's and I was in the warehouse at Glen Burnie. The bits were crazy. Just buckets upon buckets of bits listed by SKUs in some sort of nightmarish parody of the dewie decimal system. Think about this; you have a hundred thousand different kinds of bits. Every bit is different and needs to be tracked with a different number. The bits also have to have be constantly monitored for which bits are in stock and which aren't because you have to set up a queue to get the bits made. Now, the bits are too small to have any form of bar code or what not on the bit and the company doesn't have the resources to invest in setting up a computerized hand-held tracking computer, so "Joe Minimum Wage" has to take the lists from the customers, (who often want like 1 or 2 of 20 different bits, this isn't the luxury of bulk here,) locate each, tick them off on a piece of paper, box them, and then input those pulled SKUs manually into the computer. It was totally crazy and there was only like a handful of employees to manage the whole system of packing. (Meaning they had to do the bits AND the regular blisters and boxes as well.) Until you have first hand experience I don't think you can appreciate just how much effort it was for GW to keep something like that alive. Was it an error of not enough foresight? Maybe. Was there anything they could do about it in the end? No. Unless you can envision GW licensing out a Specialist game, which I can't picture in my wildest dreams. Although they did give FFG the rights to do the board games and RPGs so maybe one day we'll see it, but I doubt it. Not for a miniatures based product. It would draw too many direct comparisons.

[kturock]

Harle zero, I'm taking about before there were 'specialist' games. It's only in the last 5 years or so that GW announced the 'New business model' of 2 main agmes and the rest specialist.

I actually like the rules for LoTR better than WHFB. Yes, they aren't true ancient army rules, formations and tactics, but the "Hero" idea is an extension of the leaders and special models ruling WHFB.

When those games were released, it wasn't stated that, only the big 2 would get support. the rest were basicly one-shots.
When Inquisitor was released, whe homed it was finally a set ot rpg rules. Instead it was a half thoguth out sytem to use bigger minis in smaller units.
The newest set of rpg rules, dark heresy, is just a change of 'trappings' from WHF rpg. Most people I know or have read about who play or bought the game, don't like it. It's too complicated to play. [I've played worse, but didn't invest as much in the books, or expect much from those manufacturers.]

When epic was released, there was adeptus titanicus [in competion with battletech], and the infantry and vehicle rules.
It was 2-3 different box sets, with full armies to play 'armageddon' invasion battles, rather than small unit skirmishes.
When the spaceship rules with battlefleet gothic came out, we saw it as a way to play, and to recreate entire invasions and inter-stellar war. "The tyranids are invading our galaxy, oh no."The rules were simple and mostly fun. [simple as compared to star fleet battles or babylon 5 rules. i believe the newer fleet action rules for B5 are better.]

I believe if GW supported all of it's current armies, with a release of the basics of each army in 1 book, and the specialist units in others, they'd have a very workable and profitable business model.
I'm not saying put all of the armies in the same book, but all the basic forces in their own book; like they did with the space marines. 1 marines codex with rules for all units. then other books with rules for blood angels, dark angels, space wolves et c.
Put the eldar in 1 book. Then release others with each homeworld in another or others.
Orks all in one, then an add-on for cult of speed.

Some quick examples that other gaming companies, like TSR, WoTC and who ever owns the D&D line do. D&D is in it's 6th set of rules. 1st was basic D&D, then AD&D, then 2nd ed, 3.0, 3.5 and now 4th. They haven't lost money on any of the editions. They release new rule books and supplemetns several times a year.
GW could easily do this, with books and minis.

The Horus hersay books have been out for how long now, and they haven't released any minis or rule supplements.

[HarlequinZero]

Harle zero, I'm taking about before there were 'specialist' games. It's only in the last 5 years or so that GW announced the 'New business model' of 2 main agmes and the rest specialist.

I'm talking a good ten plus years ago when I used to work for GW. The side games have only recently begun to be called "specialist" games, but the whole two core and the specialist line as such is an old concept. In fact it's actually dated now as there really is no specialist support anymore. I was talking about before GW started making the LotR games based on the movie franchise. Now there are three core games.

[reegsk]

I just think that GW needs to put forth an effort into listening to what their player base would like to see, and not what they think we want. For example, maybe they could post a poll on their website asking us which codex we would like to see next, then present us with maybe 4 choices, and let the community vote for it(that's just one suggestion). Give us back the bitz section so that we can make our own versions of models that they in their infinite wisdom have seen fit not to supply us with, without it costing us an arm and a leg.

You can't assume that you and the several people in this thread that agree with you are the "player base." In fact, the player base they're most concerned with are the military guys you mentioned who come in, look at 40k and start dropping paychecks. Or the kids who come in and get their parents to start dropping their paychecks. Disenfranchised veterans are not where the money comes from. Truth be told, they have a very solid customer base with the way things are, so they probably assume they're doing something right. And as to putting polls up on their website, that wouldn't work. People would just find something else to get pissed about. If they voted for Dark Eldar, and they got a new book, then people would just get pissed that they screwed up the army. People are never happy.

And the bits section is completely impractical. First off, there's the description that HZ gave. That's insane! Sure they could revamp it, but it would still be a pain. Second off, take a look at thewarstore.com, and peruse their bits section. Ever wonder why only certain kits are available? Because only certain kits have a large portion of their components that sell. Let's say you created a two-part hero model with a really badass sword. People can't get enough of the sword, and keep ordering it and ordering it and ordering it. But you have to press the whole model just to get that sword. Next thing you know, you have five hundred of said hero models, swordless, sitting in your warehouse. What do you do with them? Sure, you could create a new mold that's just the sword, but are you going to do that for every single bit that becomes popular? That's insane. I was bummed when the bits system went away too, but it's too impractical. The best way to have plenty of available bits? Start a solid gaming community.

All of fantasy was copied from LoTR.

Not quite. Actually, if you look at the fantasy map and armies, you'd be more accurate saying all of WHFB was copied from history. The Empire is the Holy Roman Empire, the Bretonnians are the French during the age of chivalry, Tomb Kings are undead Egyptians, etc., etc. Sure, it has Elves and Dwarves, but where did Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Beastmen, Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Skaven and Chaos come from? You could argue that ANY current fantasy is based on Tolkien. He really is the father of modern fantasy. But I can find little comparison between WHFB and Lord of the Rings aside from Elves being adept at magic, and Dwarfs being great craftsmen with beards that grumble.

40k started as LoTR in space.

Also not true. If anything, 40k is WHFB in space, and this iteration has even less to do with LotR than Fantasy does.

Genestealers were copied from the Alien movies, and the ROM Spaceknight comic book.

This one I can't fully refute, but you could easily argue that 40k is more based off of the novel "Starship Troopers" (1959), where futuristic soldiers in powered suits of armor battle an arachnid species called "Bugs." Or how about "Ender's Game" (1977)?

My point is, you can play the "they ripped off this. . ." game until you're blue in the face. But the truth is, everybody has ripped of something, whether consciously or subconsciously. You can't read a sci-fi novel or watch a sci-fi movie, and then sit down and create a sci-fi game and NOT be influenced by it. It's human nature. But the argument that GW just rips off other people's work is erroneous.

They could have easily released every army book/codex for each race, with minor changes, rather than not releasing them at all. Look at the 'assassins' book that was released. It probably lost money, because it wasn't really usable. If they released the 'updates' like that for every army, then it would've showed support.

But they really can't. If they just update the rules a little bit and re-release the book, it won't cause the sort of feeding frenzy that a full army release would. Releasing an army book and a whole line of sweet looking new models can be pretty impressive. You can center an entire month's worth of events around something like that. Updating the rules a tiny bit and re-releasing a book without a whole new model line is kind of boring.

Getting back to the original topic of the thread, yes, GW has several times released models, discontinued them and released them again. But as someone else said, GW has never really shown the foresight to have this be an intentional plan. And it's certainly not a ". . .continued scam."

[GMMStudios]

Starslayer - One business may have charge more for something similar because of overhead.

If the imaginary sample model is 15 from GW and 5 from another company, its because the small company has less overhead (and isnt going to sell as many either BTW) and can charge less. Its just one of many reasons.

If GW is making $200% profit on its metal minis explain their quarterly reports.

As consumers we dont always understand how business works but we chastise big business as if we did, and assume its a conspiracy theory and it works exactly how we think, even if we have zero economics education. We assume if a business does something negative in our POV (raise prices) we assume it is because they hate us, even though that makes absolutely no sense and isnt even close to reality.

[Lord Alaric]

You can't assume that you and the several people in this thread that agree with you are the "player base." In fact, the player base they're most concerned with are the military guys you mentioned who come in, look at 40k and start dropping paychecks. Or the kids who come in and get their parents to start dropping their paychecks. Disenfranchised veterans are not where the money comes from. Truth be told, they have a very solid customer base with the way things are, so they probably assume they're doing something right.

So, then, by you're reasoning all they care about is making the all mighty $? Also, a lot of these people never stay in the hobby. If by solid, you mean constantly changing, then yes. And the rest of us can rot?
When I first got involved in the hobby, I literally spent thousands of dollars on minis, not all at once, of course, but at one point, I had like 5 40K armies and 6 WHFB armies, and pretty much every specialist game. Now with their pricing levels, who can really afford to support that many armies, certainly not me.

And as to putting polls up on their website, that wouldn't work. People would just find something else to get pissed about. If they voted for Dark Eldar, and they got a new book, then people would just get pissed that they screwed up the army. People are never happy.

That was just a quick, off the top of my head suggestion. There are a lot of other things that they could do to show that they care about their player base and what we think. I do somewhat agree that people will always find something to gripe about.

Next thing you know, you have five hundred of said hero models, swordless, sitting in your warehouse. What do you do with them? Sure, you could create a new mold that's just the sword, but are you going to do that for every single bit that becomes popular? That's insane. I was bummed when the bits system went away too, but it's too impractical. The best way to have plenty of available bits? Start a solid gaming community.

Well, I honestly don't know much of anything about the whole casting process, but, what about melting them down and recasting those 500 models into something else? As far as the "solid" gaming community and having plenty of bitz goes, say for example I built an Eldar army and needed some bitz to do some conversions, but, my "solid" gaming community only consisted of Space Marine players.That doesn't exactly give me a wealth of options, does it? After all, that's(space marines) the most popular army around,(because we all know how the military loves to blow stuff up, and we all know how the kiddies think that the Space Marines are the most awesomest and uberist thing ever!! OMG!!!) especially if you take into account:

In fact, the player base they're most concerned with are the military guys you mentioned who come in, look at 40k and start dropping paychecks. Or the kids who come in and get their parents to start dropping their paychecks

[reegsk]

With any business, the bottom line with a business is always the almighty dollar. Even if they want to keep their customers happy, they have a choice -- go one way to have guaranteed income and stay afloat, or go the other way to keep the less-profitable but longer-term customers happy and go belly up. I've spent thousands on this hobby too. But our profitability tends to burn out early on. Once you've purchased, assembled and painted the armies you want, you never have to buy another model again (unless they release a new one you want and don't already have), which means they're not going to make a profit off of your continuing to play the games. The real money comes from getting new people into the hobby, and getting them in that early phase when they buy a bunch of armies and hobby supplies. Once they have everything they need, then you need to focus on getting more new people.

I've been playing these games about seven years. Not a terribly long time, but enough to go through several armies. However, chances are that if GW sticks around the rest of my life, I will probably spend about as much if not less in the next sixty years as I did in the first five. Veterans aren't where the money comes from. Do they want to keep us happy? Yes, of course. But if we're not buying stuff, they have to do whatever they can to bring new people in and get them spending money. Sure it sucks for us, but if they didn't shift their focus to getting new people in to buy things, we wouldn't have a hobby to participate in.

GW is a corporation and has to make corporate decisions. To use a nerdy, 40k analogy, think of them like the Imperium. They have to make decisions for the good of the many. It sucks for the few. But again, if they don't make money, they go belly up, and who's benefitting then? You guys are looking at this glass half empty. I’m trying to look at it glass half full. GW makes decisions that I don’t like, but overall they have a great product that I enjoy quite a lot, and I honestly feel that the good outweighs the bad.

And lastly, with the example of bits. They could just take the leftover minis and melt them down, then repress them into new models. That would save on the cost of new pewter. But you’re going to lose money because you paid the cost to get the models pressed the first time, models that you didn’t sell, so you’re losing money. The bits program was just too wasteful. Great for us, horrible for GW.

[JohnHwangBT]

Holy crap I agree with JHBT!!

Just look at Warmachine a few years ago, they misjudged the rising price of tin, and jacks that they said wouldnt change in price went from less than $20 to whatever the Ironclad costs now.

*checks calendar* Odd, it's only 2009, not 2012...

Warmachine models are at least as expensive as GW models. Anyone want to guess what I paid for my Slayers? Anyone want to guess how many more Slayers I'm going to buy at PP's current prices?

[JohnHwangBT]

I am almost at the point of not buying anything else from them and switching to other systems that have better customer support.

Then make the switch!

Seriously, if you're not happy with GW, if the negatives are that much, get out of the game. Life is way to short to be "invested" into something that doesn't make your life better. Especially a hobby, which is supposed to be fun.

Play Warcraft. Or get an X-box. Or play an outdoor sport. Do something that you enjoy.

[GMMStudios]

The Mayans shouldve stopped adding to their calendar sooner then hehe

[reegsk]

Then make the switch!

Seriously, if you're not happy with GW, if the negatives are that much, get out of the game. Life is way to short to be "invested" into something that doesn't make your life better. Especially a hobby, which is supposed to be fun.

Play Warcraft. Or get an X-box. Or play an outdoor sport. Do something that you enjoy.

I suppose that's the endgame right there. Personally, I enjoy the GW hobby quite a lot (well, maybe not the painting, but definitely the playing), and have a lot of fun. If you guys are that upset with the company, might be best to cut your losses and take your business elsewhere. I'm just getting into it, so I can't say personally, but I hear good things about PP. Sorry to hear that you guys have had serious issues with GW, but I just haven't. Honestly, my experience has been all positive.

[Lord Alaric]

I enjoy the miniature wargaming hobby itself as a whole, not just GW. But, I'm an open minded person(I'm not calling anyone in this thread closed minded), the thing is though, in my area....very few if any people are interested in anything but GW, not matter how hard you try to show them anything else. So, in order to enjoy the hobby at all, I have to buy GW product. I'm not blaming them(GW) for this, I blame my community.
I will say that GW does continue to produce some quality models(overall), save the occasional Lemartes, etc.....but, I still think that they need to show respect and support for the veteran gamers who helped them grow into the company that they are. There are a lot of us out there that this way, some speak up some don't. I'm one who will speak up, but, that's just who I am.
But, again, I still think that some of their resources could be better spent elsewhere, and that if they're going to release something, they should be sure that's the direction they want to go with it, and not change their mind on it 2-3 years later. This thought applies to the original topic of the thread of discontinuing something and then bringing it back, as well as releasing a new game that they end up not supporting.

[Steven H.]

My point is, you can play the "they ripped off this. . ." game until you're blue in the face. But the truth is, everybody has ripped of something, whether consciously or subconsciously. You can't read a sci-fi novel or watch a sci-fi movie, and then sit down and create a sci-fi game and NOT be influenced by it. It's human nature. But the argument that GW just rips off other people's work is erroneous.

Apparently much of what became 40K's background Ansell wrote up for GW's proto-40K game, _Spacefarers_; if I had to guess I'd suspect that he'd read the novella "Gunner Cade" (1952, 'Cyril Judd'). The specific image of Space Marine body armor seems to have come with Ian Miller's art for RT, and Miller was probably hired in full knowledge of the sort of work he did (e.g., the U.K. cover to Stableford's _War Games_).