UK postal strike

[GearHead]

Simply put, any time you're dealing with people, you're going to get problems. Unions can lend themselves to just as much abuse as employers. I could go on a long rant, but I've got a paper I'm supposed to be writing.

[nightshade_eyes]

Unions are lame.

says someone who's never been protected by them. [presunibg that if you do run a business, you are fair and equitable to your employees].

Unions were started by businessmen to protect them from thieves, both the legal and illegal type.

Later they they became the protection of the working class.

Some states, like here in Florida are 'right-to-work' states. You can be fired at any time for any reason, like the boss doesn't like you pants; and you have NO recourse.
So without a union, you get paid whenever, and whatever the company decides.

If businesses treated workers fairly, they'd be no need for unions. In this time, if unions were in more fields and more states, their wouldn't be a 'health-care crisis'.

I agree there would most likely not be a healthcare insurance crisis in the U.S. if there were more unions. Unionizing more fields of work is the answer though.

Consider the affects of more unions in more fields like engineering, accounting, sales, etc. If there were more unions, everything would cost more because of higher company overhead ("fair wages", health insurance, and pensions). I'm not really interested in paying much more for consumer products because the engineers that developed them were unionized and paid higher wages. Or paying more for everything because every accountant was unionized and demanded higher salaries + benefits. What about a union for CEO's and other executives...ah f'ck no!!

Let's not even talk about outsourcing.

[kturock]

The problem is, that without unions, most employees don't make enough to have insurance and enough to live.
The CEO's, CFO's and other high-level management make more than they're worth. They're still getting paid exorbidant salaries, from both private sector and public sector jobs; during a time when companies are down-sizing or even going out of business. Look at all of the over-paid execs at the car companies. They've know for years that the need to make smaller cars, and that a gas crisis is on the way; but they wanted to keep making trucks and suvs. Then when the demand dropped, they cried for help.
Fire 10 of them and keep several hundred workers employed. The workers are only making what they're told to make. 10 execs losing they jobs won't close a plant or impact the economy of a local area; laying off the 100's of workers will. The execs are/were paid enough that they won't end up losining their homes and living on the street like the rank-and-file workers.
As long as the higher level management keeps getting over-paid for bad decsions, bad descions will be made.

[nightshade_eyes]

I'm sure many people will thnk I'm an idiot for saying this but I never understood why poeple think they have a "right" to dictate anything to their bosses. The days when the unions were a necessary evil are LONG gone. We have laws and regulations now that prevent many of the problems that used to occur. If you get hurt there is workman's compensation and social security. A company should be able to hire and fire people as they see fit. If you don't like it quit and work somewhere else or start up your own business and run it any way you want. To think that a lowly worker or worse a group of workers should be able to dictate terms to owners and management is madness.

You ever try to get workman's compensation?

Endless circles of BS. Never mind the clueless the doctors you will be referred to. Most of them just want to pump you up with Cortizone or you get hooked on pills. WC and SSI will only so far. Most lowly workers will probably not want to bother with that BS nor want to hire an attorney so end up screwed.

[MEDEVL]

You can't blame employers for the lack of healthcare in America. It shouldn't be their problem and unions certainly are NOT the answer to the healthcare crisis in this nation. But that's a whole different issue.
As to the workman's comp issue it's only a difficult process because so many people abuse the system with false claims. That, again is a different issue but what I'm saying is that there do exist programs to help injured workers without the intervention of unions. If you look at this from a broader perspective I'm arguing that people should be looking out for themselves and their decisions should be made with that in mind. There are some dangerous jobs and if they choose to accept those dangerous conditions as part of their employment then that's on them. As long as the employer does a reasonable job of mitigating those dangers to minimize potential injuries that's all they should have to do.
Using the example above of the guy that got his arm caught in a machine here's the questions I see as relevant:
When he took the job was he aware of the fact that he would be working with potentially dangerous equipment?
Did the employer see that he was adequately trained on that equipment?
Was he financially compensated enough to make said dangerous work worth it to him?
Was he free to resign his position at any time and seek employment elsewhere?
At the time of the accident was the equipment in normal working order?
Was the accident a result of some fault of the employer or some fault of the employee (ie was there a sudden breakdown in the safe workings of the equipment or was it a momentary lack of judgement or attentiveness by the employee)?

Let's face it guys, at least in this country the days of slavery and sweat shops are long gone for the most part. You might not like the ramifications of quitting your job but you always have that option. I'm just saying that if you look at it logically there is no reason on the face of the earth that employees should be able to tell employers how to run their businesses.

[govannon]

If your employer treats you bad, you don't need a union. You need a new employer!

[kturock]

"Let's face it guys, at least in this country the days of slavery and sweat shops are long gone for the most part. You might not like the ramifications of quitting your job but you always have that option. I'm just saying that if you look at it logically there is no reason on the face of the earth that employees should be able to tell employers how to run their businesses."

Really? and what rose-colored glasses do you look through?

I guess you've never worked in a factory, or a large chain store or restaurant.

and quitting isn't an option when they're the only company in town.
walmart is notorious for doing it. 90% of their workforce are part-time, no benefit employees. there is no where else to work.


usps is just a service factory. it doesn't make anything, but it does have an 'assembly line'. it's a well respected job. it's a govenment job. it's also one of the biggest violators of osha for health and safety of it's employees. every 'rule' in the contract has been instituted in direct response to usps past practises. work a 12+ hour day and then come back to work 4 more, with 6 hours between shifts. work 3 hours, have 4 hours off and be at work at another building 1 hour away and work 5 hours there. work 6 hours without a break. work on machines that have been cited for causing injuries, both instant and long-term repetitve. work in a large, metal, warehouse-type, sealed building, without any windows and only a few doors, without any air conditioning. the building is filled with machines that raise the air temprerature to over 90 degrees. [with did that 3 weeks ago when the building lost 1 phase of power. the AC was down for over 5 hours. since most of the orting machines weren't running properly because of the lack of power, the others were run longer and harder. work without the proper tools or equipment. perform 10 hours worth of work in 7.5 hours. work overnight. work every holiday and weekend. not be allowed to take tme off to take your sick child, spouse or even yourself to the doctor or hospital. then be threatened to be fired when you do. perform the work of 2.5-3 people for 10 hours. 5-6 days a week. 49 weeks a year. for 20+ years.
just a typical day at usps. most all of it 'violates' the contract. you'll get an 'apology' in writting, maybe some back pay or compensation, while the problem continues and never ceases.

the machines take precedence over the workers.

i can site problems in grocery stores. in fast food restaurants. even in the health care and education/teaching fields. all because of a lack of people being held responsible for they actions. no one can be held to blame, because there is no one to oversee them, to file a complaint with.

unions are a group of people coming together for the mutual betterment of each other.
it started with the trade unions, merchants, not workers; who joined together for protection vs unfair laws, taxes, tariffs and highwaymen.

look at the US government. the people who write the laws and rules. they get free healthcare FOR LIFE. why should they bother to make it affordable to anyone else? they get paid enough to afford it and to pay for the free perks they get; but they don't. they're barely held responsible for they own actions and desicions.

how are they going to insure that workers rights are protected when they don't abide by common law?

if employers treated workers fairly, they'd be no need for unions. as long as it $ first, with no over-sight of the management, they'll be a continued need for them.

unions negoiate a legal contract between it's members and their bosses. not a verbal agreement. a binding legal document that is proposed and reviewed by lawyers on both sides.
unions are the enforcers of the legal contractual agreements between workers and management.
ask any one working a unionized job what the conditions would be like if they weren't protected by the union.
everyone would be paid minimum wage and have no benefits, no job security, no retirement and never any way to better themselves.

.

[govannon]

I worked at a factory where the employees went union. The pay raise they got for us did not even cover the union dues and the increase cost of the same benefits we already had. Other than losing some of my pay, the union did nothing for me.

Now I am not saying that all unions are bad, but I think most are not needed. I have seen the unions here do some stupid stuff. A steel mill that a good friend of mine worked at tried to fire a worker for sleeping on the job. The union fought for him saying that there was nothing written in the company handbook against sleeping on the job and that he was caught up on his work. He ended up not getting fired. Why does an employer need to pay somebody $25 an hour to sleep?

There was one factory here that asked its employees to take a small paycut because because business was not going good. The company was going to increase the health insurance to help make up for it. The union said not, so about 1/3 got layed off. There was a big thing here about a union going on strike for several months. Many of the workers lost their homes. When it was all over they did get a raise, but nothing close to losing out on all the months pay.

I know that some union do much needed good for the workers. The coal mines are an example of that here. But unions are not as great as some on here are trying to make them out to be. Unions are not a group of people coming together for the mutual betterment of each other. They are big business now just like the companies they are trying to protect employee from. There is corruption and greed. Why are unions spending member dues on political parties? The country on average is 50/50 on politics. So why do unions go againts 50% of the political views of its members?

[Ironhide]

Didn't the UAW do the same thing when the major car companies were looking for a government bailout? Ya know, didn't want their members to take a paycut so the companies wouldn't have to take a bailout.

Unions that work to ensure their members have a safe place to work, employee rights, and basically ensure employers don't try to screw them over is good. A union that is just in it for a profit is bad.

@kturock: If those kind of practices are going on, why hasn't anyone written their Congressman?

[nightshade_eyes]

Now I am not saying that all unions are bad, but I think most are not needed. I have seen the unions here do some stupid stuff. A steel mill that a good friend of mine worked at tried to fire a worker for sleeping on the job. The union fought for him saying that there was nothing written in the company handbook against sleeping on the job and that he was caught up on his work. He ended up not getting fired. Why does an employer need to pay somebody $25 an hour to sleep?

Ever work in an office?

People waste quite a bit of time browsing the web. Getting paid to do nothing happens more often than you would think.

[govannon]

Now I am not saying that all unions are bad, but I think most are not needed. I have seen the unions here do some stupid stuff. A steel mill that a good friend of mine worked at tried to fire a worker for sleeping on the job. The union fought for him saying that there was nothing written in the company handbook against sleeping on the job and that he was caught up on his work. He ended up not getting fired. Why does an employer need to pay somebody $25 an hour to sleep?

Ever work in an office?

People waste quite a bit of time browsing the web. Getting paid to do nothing happens more often than you would think.

I know. And I think employers should be able to fire somebody like that without any hassle from a union.

[MagickalMemories]

Ever work in an office?

People waste quite a bit of time browsing the web. Getting paid to do nothing happens more often than you would think.

Bah!
Bah, I say!
Nobody does that!

Umm...

Err....


Carry on! Nothingtoseehere!


Eric

[kturock]

Didn't the UAW do the same thing when the major car companies were looking for a government bailout? Ya know, didn't want their members to take a paycut so the companies wouldn't have to take a bailout.

Unions that work to ensure their members have a safe place to work, employee rights, and basically ensure employers don't try to screw them over is good. A union that is just in it for a profit is bad.

@kturock: If those kind of practices are going on, why hasn't anyone written their Congressman?

what good do they do? in congress wanted to help workers, why aren't they stronger laws for wages, health and safety protection, crap, florida like some other states, is a 'right-to-work' state. that was voted in by congress.

[Ironhide]

You are still a government employee working for a government agency, correct? That means your employer has to abide by federal laws regarding hiring and firing practices. Writing a clear and concise letter to your congressman about the illegal practices and recommendations to correct them, will get a response. If more than one person does this, it will get an even better response. Congress approves the budgets for all government agencies, so they have vested interest in whether or not those agencies are doing their jobs correctly.

[kturock]

I worked at a factory where the employees went union. The pay raise they got for us did not even cover the union dues and the increase cost of the same benefits we already had. Other than losing some of my pay, the union did nothing for me.

Now I am not saying that all unions are bad, but I think most are not needed. I have seen the unions here do some stupid stuff. A steel mill that a good friend of mine worked at tried to fire a worker for sleeping on the job. The union fought for him saying that there was nothing written in the company handbook against sleeping on the job and that he was caught up on his work. He ended up not getting fired. Why does an employer need to pay somebody $25 an hour to sleep?

There was one factory here that asked its employees to take a small paycut because because business was not going good. The company was going to increase the health insurance to help make up for it. The union said not, so about 1/3 got layed off. There was a big thing here about a union going on strike for several months. Many of the workers lost their homes. When it was all over they did get a raise, but nothing close to losing out on all the months pay.

I know that some union do much needed good for the workers. The coal mines are an example of that here. But unions are not as great as some on here are trying to make them out to be. Unions are not a group of people coming together for the mutual betterment of each other. They are big business now just like the companies they are trying to protect employee from. There is corruption and greed. Why are unions spending member dues on political parties? The country on average is 50/50 on politics. So why do unions go againts 50% of the political views of its members?

your right, i misspoke.. unions are big business. but "A" union, by defination, is the defination i quoted.

and you example shows perfectly why unions are needed.
there has to be some form of progressive discipline. a set series of rules to follow to fire someone. as usual, since most all management are too lazy to work, hence they become management; they didn't follow the rules.
there must me some rules he ignored. there wasn't enough work for him to accomplish? if so, then was it completed. if not, then give him more. there usually is something akin to, dereliction of duty.
there must be some rules or regulations that he failed to follow. if not, then where do i apply?

the employees were asked to take a pay cut, but the managers got raises or their pay stayed the same.

my union is also split by politics. rather than looking at the candidates that will help them at their job, they look at the ones that will help the companies that they have $ invested in. They're making $ on the backs of the employees who work for those companies. walmart again. who here would work there? i don't and won't shop there.

how many people here never use either their computer or the company's computer while at work to surf the web or.. god forbid.. check here at b-town.
i'm working nites, so i'm home. i barely get to post from work. the work computers are highly-monitored and b-town is blocked. all sites have their info copied and reviewed. i get to use my personal laptop using the unions' limted wi-fi, but only on my breaks or lunch.

the union doesn't hassle, it protects. i've seen plenty of people get fired, that deserved it; because management got off it's butt and followed the rules, and formed a case and then fired them. it's like a cop arresting you and throwing you in jail without juris prudence. [a case, proof or just cause].


time for bed...