GW's continued scam [rant]

[Stanislav]

I am on the "against" fence with GW. Like Alaric pointed out, I really got tired of the support issues. Do I think they yanked a model off the shelves so that they could re-release it a couple of years later and make money? No, sorry not in that camp. Do I get fed up with them stopping the support for items? Absolutely.
So much so, that even as an organizer several years ago for an Indy GT, I quit cold turkey. Sold off all of my GW stuff, and now am much happier as a Privateer Press player. Do I think there isn't the possibility of things going horribly wrong there? No rose colored glasses here. Seven years into their system, they decide to revamp and make Mark II. One of the things that caught my eye is that they advertised that NONE of their models would become obsolete and would still be able to be used in the game. Now, they did release some new multi-piece plastics that replaced some of their models (jacks), but the old ones are still useable, and they aren't that different that it should even matter. I realize that GW has more models to not make obsolete, but the fact remains, they stop supporting whole game systems, why worry about a model or two?.

Sarcasm monitor: Engaged!


Rich

[govannon]

I don't know what peoples problem with specialist games is? If you have dealt with GW any amount of time, you should know these games are not meant to be supported like Fantasy or 40k. You can download the rules for free and you can still buy the miniatures for most of the games. I play Necromunda and I like the idea that I don't have to keep buying new stuff.

As far as Fantasy and 40k, it is expensive but nobody is forcing me to buy stuff. My only complaint is they don't do a good job FAQing older army books when new edition of the rules come out.

[Stanislav]

My problem with Specialist games is not truly "support", it's more like they release them to retailers then a few months later they are dinosaurs. Making them regularly available (not having to direct order them) and even a yearly update with a few new models would be great. Bloodbowl, Necromunda, Mordheim, BFG, Epic, and even Space Hulk. It's cool that you have the models, but trying to get someone else started in the game to perpetuate it's longevity is almost impossible without Direct Ordering and taking away from your LGS.

FAQing your two best selling games seems like a good idea as well, even keeping "obsolete" items with patch rules is better than nothing.

[govannon]

My problem with Specialist games is not truly "support", it's more like they release them to retailers then a few months later they are dinosaurs. Making them regularly available (not having to direct order them) and even a yearly update with a few new models would be great. Bloodbowl, Necromunda, Mordheim, BFG, Epic, and even Space Hulk. It's cool that you have the models, but trying to get someone else started in the game to perpetuate it's longevity is almost impossible without Direct Ordering and taking away from your LGS.

FAQing your two best selling games seems like a good idea as well, even keeping "obsolete" items with patch rules is better than nothing.

I thought any LGS could carry specialist games stuff. It has been a year or 2, but I have bought necromunda stuff at a LGS. I think that store also did demos of specialist games to get people interested.

[Stanislav]

As a former retailer, that is the whole problem. Several years ago, Blood Bowl was re-released, and I got a frenzy going in my store. Sold it well. Then, my rep called and said, order all of the Blood Bowl you can, we are taking it back to direct at the end of the month.

Death Knell for Blood Bowl at the store. No one wanted to bring it in to play, and what stock I had remaining sat there and collected dust. With some kind of continued support, it would have been a game I could fire back up. Without it...well you can figure that out. So as a store owner, do I want to continue pimping something that I have to tell people to order it direct from GW? Or switch to something with more ongoing appeal?

Rich

[govannon]

As a former retailer, that is the whole problem. Several years ago, Blood Bowl was re-released, and I got a frenzy going in my store. Sold it well. Then, my rep called and said, order all of the Blood Bowl you can, we are taking it back to direct at the end of the month.

Death Knell for Blood Bowl at the store. No one wanted to bring it in to play, and what stock I had remaining sat there and collected dust. With some kind of continued support, it would have been a game I could fire back up. Without it...well you can figure that out. So as a store owner, do I want to continue pimping something that I have to tell people to order it direct from GW? Or switch to something with more ongoing appeal?

Rich

I guess there is another thing I don't like GW for. Direct order only stuff is stupid.

[starslayer]

Gw customer service cant be that great. At least 2 game stores in my area (Lehigh Valley, PA) have stopped carrying Gw. The owners quoted poor service, poor fill rates, and huge "minimum orders". Gw run events were a joke. They would have "tourneys" with $20+ entry fees and crappy key-chains for a "prize". The players & places to play have seriously dwindled. Take a look at how prices have increased over just a year or two. Sometimes 20% or more. Metal has gone up, but not plastics. Not that much. Im not saying to not make a profit, but its crossed the line into gouging.
I get a better bang for my buck with video/computer games or RPGS.

A GW metal hero is $15. Why can another company sell a metal figure for $5 and make a profit, but Gw cant? Please....

40K epic, Warmaster, Necromunda, Mordheim, Battlefleet Gothic,etc,etc. are no longer seriously supported. Rukles mistakes arent corrected. The list goes on.

Nothing agianst it ,if you choose GW. Its your money. For me, its just not worth it.

[reegsk]

Starslayer, I'm not responding to you personally, but you hit two points that a lot of people have mentioned, so I wanted to use your quotes so I could respond to them.

Gw customer service cant be that great. At least 2 game stores in my area (Lehigh Valley, PA) have stopped carrying Gw. The owners quoted poor service, poor fill rates, and huge "minimum orders".

Games Workshop doesn't have minimum orders. They have a minimum stocking requirement depending upon your contract with them. You order everything on that list once, and you don't have to order it again. GW never sends people to indy retailers to make sure they have Moria starter sets on the shelves. People who have issues with their direct sales rep probably have a problem with that specific person. So they should probably just lodge a formal complaint and hope for someone better. I've dealt with GW many times (both as a customer and as an employee), and I have to say that, while they lack in some areas (FAQs, specialist game support, etc.), their customer service is some of the best I've ever had.

Take a look at how prices have increased over just a year or two. Sometimes 20% or more. Metal has gone up, but not plastics. Not that much. Im not saying to not make a profit, but its crossed the line into gouging.

Price increases aren't just about the increasing cost of the materials. You guys are complaining because GW doesn't release new models or books for certain armies, or that they don't FAQ things fast enough. THAT'S where the need to increase prices comes from. Model designers aren't cheap. Neither are the writers that redo rules and fluff. And what about those thousands of guys in red shirts throughout the world that teach people how to paint and play? No other miniatures company is as big. No other company has its own stores. And it's not just salaries. Rent, electric bills, transportation fees. . .Privateer Press doesn't pay any of those. Or not nearly as much. It's unfair to compare GW to other miniature companies, because no miniature company can match up. GW has more miniatures, more factions, Hell, more individual games than anyone else. If they were smaller, sure, they could be cheaper. But $50 for terminators pays for keeping armies like Dark Eldar and Tomb Kings on their website.

I'll admit, I'm bummed about the lack of support for Specialist Games myself. I love Mordheim, BFG, Epic and Blood Bowl. But they never really sold that well. It may have been GW's fault, maybe they didn't push it correctly, but you can't hate them for raising prices on the one hand and also for not supporting things that they're losing money on with the other. Sure, they make some crappy decisions that anger us, but it's not some conspiracy to screw you out of money. If it angers you guys so much, why not make like several other people in this thread and get rid of your stuff, then ignore GW altogether? Honestly, they're the best miniatures company out there. Have you ever been taught by someone from Privateer Press how to build and paint their minis, or play their games?

[starslayer]

You are entitled to your opnion. Im entitled to mine. Its all good.

I just know what the owner said to me. I wanted to order a pack of figs. He said Gw required him to order 10 of that fig at a time & he didnt want it on the shelf. I got similar stories from two different owners at two different stores. They also complained that GW sales people kept bugging them to carry more/buy more. Thats their job, (commission) i understand. But the fact is , hobby stores in this area dont/wont carry GW stuff. There must be a reason.

Sorry, you just arent going to justify(to me) some of the prices & price increases.

This rant has dozens like it on other sites. Where there is smoke, there is fire. Im just dissapointed. I like Gw games, I really do. I just feel Gw let me & other long-time supporters down. They could have done more, tried harder, but they didnt.

Feel free to reply or whatever, but Im done here. I stated my opinion and I respect yours , even if we disagree.

[mrrshann618]

Necromunda was the game that solidified my "love" of the 40k universe. I played that game forever when it first game out. I had 3 gangs myself with roughly 30 models in each so I could swap things around. Then the expansion came out, WHee! It was great, then all of a sudden GW pulled it from the lgs. Necromunda Died overnight. I used my gangers in a pathwork IG army with a friend for a while.

If they would have simply left Necromunda available for my lgs to carry, I'm sure that the 3 stores that have come and gone would not have gone belly up. Not saying the ecromunda was all that, but if they simply left all the specialist games available to shelf sales I'm more than positive that at least one of the 3 attempted stores would have survived. Instead I have a choice, fight tooth and nail to get something ordered through my Fanboy lgs for magic, Drive roughly 60+ miles to get to a decent store, or Direct order from someone other than GW.

They simply lost my Direct order business when they started pulling the "direct order only" crap, and then yanking my online bitz box.

[Stanislav]

Have you ever been taught by someone from Privateer Press how to build and paint their minis, or play their games?

Maybe you just hit a nail on the head. The Retail Stores are not "money makers", I understand it is kind of a loss leader kind of thing. Get people involved and up to speed, and then spread the good word to more imp[ressionable people. Face it, is someone gonna continue to pay full retail at a GW store or go to an online retailer? If they would have left it in the hands of LGS instead of trying to micromanage it themselves, would they need to have all of that overhead you pointed out like those 1000 red shirts?

To answer the question about being taught how to play by someone from Privateer Press...well, you need to pick on a smaller game company like Wyrd or something. If GW had not screwed over their "Outriders" so bad, they could pull on the support that Privateer does with their Pressgangers. So, no Matt Wilson has never explained to me the game mechanics of Hordes, but I know several Press Gangers that have, and did a much better job that a red shirt did at a GW store concerning the new Foundation Paints.

GW is a monster of a company, however they have lost their grasp on the basics of customer service and only see the red ink on the bottom line. Which of course sends them into a panic, which makes them raise prices, which sends the public into a panic, and when GW finds out, they in turn go into a panic because of the red ink on the bottom line which makes them raise prices...do you see the feedback loop here?

There was a comercial for Anti-Cocaine at one time that did this same thing...I take Coke so that I can make more money, so that I can buy more Coke, so that I can work longer hours and make more money, so that I can buy more Coke... Same idea.

[Imaginos]

I stopped by my not-so-LGS this weekend where I used to work part-time. Talked to the owner about the way things were going. He had a sheet posted in his GW stuff that said he was going to place a GW direct order in December, but because of poor terms (the fact that he won't get his full retailer discount), he was adding a 10% surcharge to the items. So on the one hand, he's providing a service to the customers who want to order direct from him and support him (and those who might not have a credit card). On the other hand, he's gouging those same folks - albeit he says he is passing the buck on from GW.

Mind you, he gets a lot of business from GW sales. A lot. That is pretty much supporting his store - the RPG side contributes nowhere near as much. Years ago, when I worked for him, GW saw the business in the area and put a GW store in a large local mall. Chipped into his business a lot. He got pretty bitter about it. But he was able to stick it out until the GW store closed, and then his business doubled. So that little store chipped into the LGS, but ended up being better for the LGS in the long run.

But this has left him pretty bitter about it. He resents the company and the game, but knows that is what keeps him going.

[reegsk]

I will admit, GW's business model isn't exactly the best. I saw the five stores within reasonable driving distance close in the last three years, which is rough. Now the closest is in downtown Manahattan. . .and I live in Massachusetts. So the LGS scene has really become big lately (ironically, the one LGS that survived being down the street from a GW store closed. . .two years after the GW store did). I do fear that a huge surge in GW sales will cause them to rethink closing their stores and move one back in, which might drive the LGS's out. Having a local GW again wouldn't be a bad thing, but I like or LGS owners (and they give our club a 15% discount). I'm not completely blind to the fact that they do make bad business decisions (quite a few) and their policies could be a little better. But I still feel that they're the best gaming company out there. They have the most games (even if they don't fully support them), I still say they have great customer service (though I can't really compare to PP. . .just started playing Warmachine), they have one of the largest model lines. . .there's a lot of good stuff there. The sheer amount of backdrop to 40k and, to a lesser extent, WHFB is just mind boggling. They have a publishing company that is pretty much dedicated to producing their backstory.

There was a good point made, though. Perhaps they're a little too big. They may have lost touch a little bit, and there are so many people involved. Too many cooks spoil the broth. They do seem to have a high turnover in the higher ranks. Actually, they just fired one of their community development guys (Dave Taylor) about six months back, and the other one (Chris Gohlinghurst) left during the summer. And BAM. . .one Games Day out of nowhere. They have so much to work with, and I don't know if it's the guys at the top or the constant rotation of guys in the middle, but they've got to figure something out.

[Lord Alaric]

Games Workshop doesn't have minimum orders.

Unless they have changed this policy, they do, in fact have a minimum order amount. I used to work at my LGS, and handled all wargaming related issues at my store. Whether it was keeping up the store stock of items, or organizing and reffing tournaments, or running a demo game, or giving painting/modeling advice.

But $50 for terminators pays for keeping armies like Dark Eldar and Tomb Kings on their website.

If that's the case, then why is it that we don't have any new Dark Eldar minis? or an updated codex at least?

Honestly, they're the best miniatures company out there.

That's entirely debatable, as it really depends on what genre you are interested in. As well as what types of game play you prefer.

I don't know what peoples problem with specialist games is? If you have dealt with GW any amount of time, you should know these games are not meant to be supported like Fantasy or 40k. You can download the rules for free and you can still buy the miniatures for most of the games. I play Necromunda and I like the idea that I don't have to keep buying new stuff.

As far as Fantasy and 40k, it is expensive but nobody is forcing me to buy stuff. My only complaint is they don't do a good job FAQing older army books when new edition of the rules come out.

The thing is, that we know they're not supposed to be a "core" game like WHFB and 40K. But, quite honestly, some of their specialist games are distinctly superior to the core games. Not to mention that the leagues and campaigns for them were quite a lot of fun to organize and play in. Also take into account that they play much quicker, a lot of which has to do with model count(i.e. you don't need nearly as many to play, which is also a big contributing factor in getting people involved with them), and sometimes you feel like squeezing in one last game, but just don't have time for a 40k/WHFB sized game.

And my point is that it's not that I feel GW is forcing me to buy their products. After all, it's my money, and no one can tell me where I can spend it. It's the local gaming community. Like Stanislav, I sold/traded off all my GW games for Privateer Press products when it gained a following in my area a few years ago, which has pretty much died off in the last year or so. Not to being an inferior game or having inferior products, but mainly due to the fact that I live near a large military base. So, with the constantly rotating population, there are always new faces in the LGS. Their first exposure when walking in the door is the large racking with the GW products, and being military, they like the large scale battle feel of the game, especially 40K. While there nothing wrong with that, there's nothing like a good fast paced skirmish type of game. Most of them won't even look at any other gaming system, and when they do, the first thing you hear from them is "I could use that for X GW model".

I just think that GW needs to put forth an effort into listening to what their player base would like to see, and not what they think we want. For example, maybe they could post a poll on their website asking us which codex we would like to see next, then present us with maybe 4 choices, and let the community vote for it(that's just one suggestion). Give us back the bitz section so that we can make our own versions of models that they in their infinite wisdom have seen fit not to supply us with, without it costing us an arm and a leg.

Personally, I'd like to see them ditch the whole LotR line. It's nothing personal, I just don't care for it, and in the end, I have no doubt that it will go the way of the rest of the specialist games. So, all the money that they have been dumping into that line could be used to focus on the 2 core games. This is just my opinion on the matter and some of you may or may not agree, which is fine. We're all entitled to our own opinions.

There was a good point made, though. Perhaps they're a little too big. They may have lost touch a little bit, and there are so many people involved. Too many cooks spoil the broth. They do seem to have a high turnover in the higher ranks. Actually, they just fired one of their community development guys (Dave Taylor) about six months back, and the other one (Chris Gohlinghurst) left during the summer. And BAM. . .one Games Day out of nowhere. They have so much to work with, and I don't know if it's the guys at the top or the constant rotation of guys in the middle, but they've got to figure something out.

And I think that's one of the biggest problems. They got too big too fast. They have pretty much stopped listening "to" the gaming community, and are trying to "define" the community. And the fact that they have such a high turnover rate could indicate that there are people in the company who may not be "pleasant" to work with/for.

[HarlequinZero]

Personally, I'd like to see them ditch the whole LotR line. It's nothing personal, I just don't care for it, and in the end, I have no doubt that it will go the way of the rest of the specialist games. So, all the money that they have been dumping into that line could be used to focus on the 2 core games. This is just my opinion on the matter and some of you may or may not agree, which is fine. We're all entitled to our own opinions.

Actually, LotR is NOT a specialist game, but it is the reason why there has been no real support for specialist games since it's release. GW used to have a system where they had the two "core" games and then roughly every two years they'd (re)release a specialist game. (It was kind of like the Olympics and the Winter Olympics. A new version of a core game was the Olympics and a new specialist game was the winter olympics. So they had something new rotating every two years. That was the plan anyway.) When GW was given the opportunity to get the rights to LotR they made the decision that it wasn't viable to support three "core" games and still keep up the specialist games. So the real demon you should be attacking is LotR and whoever decided that picking up that game was a good idea. I think LotR was an absolutely horrible move and I think it's just becoming worse as they try to turn it into a mass battles game. At least Fellowship of the Ring offered something distinct from Fantasy. Now the War of the Ring, while the underlying mechanics are quite different, is just adding another fantasy mass combat game. Why do they need two fantasy mass combat games? The simple answer is: they don't, but GW is trying to milk every last cent out of the license. Even if gamers are becoming very disenchanted with LotR the guys in suits can't see past the fact that LotR the brand is huge.

Buuuut...let's get back to the original topic that kturock brought up. As far as GW getting rid of stuff only to bring it back several years later I think it's got a lot less to do with planning than you might think. They DO make changes designed to boost sales of models, but thinking so far ahead as to make something obsolete or to outright retire it with thoughts of later bringing it back is far too much future thinking for GW.