I believe it's pretty clear he just wanted out of the trade he agreed to, and is coming up with the most ridiculous reasons why. I don't know of any gamer who can't attach a few arms to torsos (in the original factory pieces mind you, not broken), besides the fact that I offered to do it for him. He sights "lack of time" for needing the models to have been glued prior. As for the destroyed models, I packed them quite well (documented) and he says the package wasn't crushed by the PO. So basically he's saying I packaged them well, carefully bubble-wrapping each, then destroyed/crushed them in a box and shipped them out.
I believe the bottom line of this is that he said quite clearly he could have been more reasonable, but simply "felt" like not being so (see last posts). He also jumped immediately to sending the models back and ignored all efforts to resolve his issues. Basically he changed his mind and tried to paint me as the bad guy when there's ample evidence I fulfilled my end, and made every effort to make things work out.
His one saving grace is that he did ultimately refund my money and shipping costs (despite getting a bit obnoxious in PMs) and sent the models back. I will update this post if there's a problem with their arrival.
Here's the PMs (mine are bold) in chronological order:
Re: H: Circle Orboros W: Khador, Mercs/Minions, $
Sent: Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:07 am
by Anger Worm
Hey, I've got the following mercs Im interested in trading for circle:
Magnus
Mule
Mangler x2
10 steelhead halberdiers
Renegade
Talon
Stannis
Sent: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:36 am
by kung leao
Thanks, it's not quite what I was looking for but I'll keep this in mind. Do you have any Rhulics? I forgot to list those earlier, and have updated the listing accordingly.
Sent: Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:55 pm
by Anger Worm
I also have a Ghordson Driller NiB and just found a Nomad.
Sent: Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:46 pm
by kung leao
OK, I've got a another potential trade in the works but if that falls through we can definitely talk.
What is the condition of the other Merc models, painted, bare, assembled, etc?
Also, were you planning on buying the rest of the Circle lot? If so I'll give you the best price I can, otherwise let me know what specific pieces you were looking for and I'll take it into consideration.
Thanks,
Brent
Sent: Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:24 pm
by Anger Worm
If we did lot for lot I could do cash to supplement the mercs.
Almost all of the mercs are new, assembled bare metal, though I believe the Nomad, renegade and mangler are painted or stripped (have to dig them out of their box, and I can strip them before shipping if they're painted).
Sent: Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:32 pm
by kung leao
Cool, sounds good.
Retail wise, the Circle lot comes out to a little over $500, with discounting for the missing Druid and minor work that needs to be done (noted with "needs a pin"). The retail value of your lot comes out to $260, so $240 difference.
I'd go your Mercs + $100, how does that sound?
Thanks,
Brent
PS - I'm going to be heading out soon, so I might be an hour or so before I can check this box again.
Sent: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:02 pm
by Anger Worm
That's slightly pricey for me right now.
Sent: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:00 am
by kung leao
Sorry for the delay, I checked for messages when I got home and then headed out for dinner.
I figure you're helping me out be taking the whole lot at once, so what do you think of $80?
If not that, we can take out the cash portion and instead I'll trade you for a favorably-sized part of my lot.
Thanks,
Brent
Sent: Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:11 am
by Anger Worm
That works, let's call it a deal. Will you be including the Circle book? Also, the only thing not bare or stripped is one mangler which has base colors. Let me know if you need it stripped for you or if it's ok as is.
I'll need your mailing address and paypal. I'm assuming given our mutually good feedback we can ship the models around the same time. I'll be making payment ASAP.
Jarrett Messing
3845 18th Avenue, Apartment 6B
Brooklyn, NY 11218
That's my:
pMagnus (stripped)
Mule (bare metal)
Mangler x2 (1x bare metal, 1x base painted)
10 steelhead halberdiers (bare metal)
Renegade (stripped)
Talon (bare metal)
Stannis (bare metal)
Ghordsun Driller (NiB)
Nomad (stripped)
$80
for your:
Grayle the Farstrider
Kromac the Ravenous (2 models)
Epic Kaya & Laris (Kaya's spear needs a pin)
Warpwolf Stalker, converted so he's holding the sword straight up
Pureblood Warpwolf
Gnarlhorn Satyr, partially assembled
Wold Guardian, stripped OK (a basecoat would cover it)
Wold Warden, partially assembled
Gorax, classic sculpt
5x Warpborn Skinwalkers, one weapon needs a pin
10x Tharn Bloodtrackers, unassembled
Nuala the Huntress Bloodtracker UA, no MK2 card (still looking)
5x Druids of Orboros (one short), partially assembled with some minor conversions
Druids of Orboros UA
2x Tharn Ravagers (traded base set a while back, forgetting that I had these!)
Tharn Whitemane, stripped OK (a basecoat would cover it)
Lord of the Feast, partially assembled and stripped OK
MK2 Circle Tokens
Sent: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:51 am
by kung leao
Hi, I don't have the Circle book so unfortunately no I can't include it. Let me just conduct a final inspection of my models to make sure everything's in order, then we'll call it a deal. Don't worry about the base coated Mangler, I'll strip it later. Here's my shipping address:
Brent Russell
7670 Mission Ct.
Franklin, WI 53132
And here's my PayPal address: brentr926@gmail.com
If you like I can PM you once the Mercs arrive, and then you can send the $80 via PayPal. I'll get the Circle models mailed off to you no later than 1 business day after that. Let me know if you have any questions, and thanks for the trade!
- Brent
Sent: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:48 pm
by kung leao
OK, there's a problem on my end - I can't find the foam tray with my Heavies and Beast Kromac. It might be in my game store locker, or I may have left it out at the game store when I was showing the lot to a local player this past Thursday. Let me keep looking, but don't ship anything until this gets straightened out. Sorry for the inconvenience!
- Brent
Sent: Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:08 pm
by Anger Worm
All right then. I've got your models together so let me know when you pick up the stuff you left at your club so we can complete the deal. When will you be able to go get them?
Sent: Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:56 pm
by kung leao
Excellent question. I should be able to get there this afternoon, I'll let you know when I have them.
Sent: Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:09 pm
by Anger Worm
Cool, let me know.
Sent: Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:27 pm
by kung leao
OK we're good, I just mixed that try up with my Khador when putting everything back in the locker.
One minor thing, the Wold Guardian and Lord of the Feast must have been primed with gesso, or something similarly tenacious, as the metal is for lack of a better term "stained" a dark color. Another layer of primer should cover it easily though.
Let me know if you have any questions or concerns, otherwise we can pull the trigger on this.
Thanks for hanging in there,
Brent
Sent: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:34 am
by Anger Worm
Ok, cool.
Doesn't matter if the metal is discolored as they're going to be reprimed anyway. Or even if they're lead copies from some Chinese labor den, as long as they're the right figs!
We're good to go, your models will ship Monday. I'll paypal you soon as well.
Sent: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:00 pm
by Anger Worm
Just sent you the $80. Your models will ship out Monday.
Sent: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:28 pm
by kung leao
Thanks, I look forward to receiving them!
Sent: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:27 pm
by Anger Worm
Your package is on its way. Confirmation # 9101010521297233576398.
Sent: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:40 pm
by kung leao
Thanks, which carrier did you use?
Sent: Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:02 pm
by Anger Worm
That's USPS priority.
Sent: Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:33 pm
by kung leao
Well I opened the box, and sorry man but these are heading right back to you. The trade was for assembled models, and I'm guessing that because of the size of the box, a lot of these models are in pieces and some were bent badly, the Nomad's sword and Stannis Brocker's legs in particular.
I will repackage these and send them out tomorrow, and of course refund your money then as well.
Sent: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:32 pm
by Anger Worm
That's ridiculous. Firstly, each item was bubble wrapped. Then each was inserted into a hard postal video-box. Then this was placed in a further bubble wrapped envelope. I took more than sufficient steps to assure they arrived to you safely.
Now some models were not fully assembled when they were sent (nor did I ever say "all models are fully assembled" - I simply stated their paint status and general condition). The unassembled models were simply not glued together (this was particularly true of the stripped models which detached at the glue-join). They were not broken or bent.
The nomad's sword is particularly flimsy so I took particular care to place it in the box where it wouldn't be damaged. That's Privateer Presses design, not my packaging, and again an easily fixed issue. Things get bent in the mail sometimes, it's not a sufficient reason to back out of a trade.
What it sounds like to me is you decided against the trade and now you're sending my models back in worse shape than they were sent. This is unacceptable and falls under the deadbeat/backout category.
Sent: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:51 pm
by Anger Worm
To further reinforce how well I shipped your items, here's some photos of their initial condition and how well I wrapped them:
(Right click, select view image for full screen) [Replaced IMG with Direct Link for cut-and-paste]
Note that the only models unassembled are those stripped or NiB (as stated), and in the same pieces they were in originally. You're telling me you can't assemble them?
As for damage, everyone knows things can be damaged in the mail. I took every step to assure your models arrived in the condition you expected them in. What it sounds like to me is you're nitpicking to back out of the trade after having reached an agreement, having me package and ship your items and wait for them to arrive. This is further reinforced by your immediate insistence that you send them back and refund me.
Getting a better offer is not a valid reason to back out of a trade.
Sent: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:31 am
by kung leao
Dude, the Nomad's sword was literally bent over backwards. In a circle. I straightened it out as best as I could but the angle still isn't quite right.
The Stannis Brocker model was bent at an angle that looked like a race bike going around the bend. I straightened it out somewhat but I could feel the metal in the horse legs weakening.
Your exact words in a previous message: "Almost all of the mercs are new, assembled bare metal, though I believe the Nomad, renegade and mangler are painted or stripped (have to dig them out of their box, and I can strip them before shipping if they're painted)."
The assembled state was important to me, because I wanted an army that I could field quickly. Here is what was in an assembled state when removed from the box:
4-5 Steelheads
Stannis
1 Mangler
Talon
Obviously the Driller is an exception since you mentioned it was new in box. Nevertheless the condition in which the models arrived is not what was described above, because you put way too much in a small flat rate box. As to your supposition that your models will arrive in a worse state than they were shipped, that's BS because I did what I could to straighten them out and put them in an appropriately sized box for shipping. They will in fact arrive at your place in better condition than they arrived at mine.
And as for your accusation that I'm trying to weasel out of this trade because I got a better deal from somewhere else or whatever... I'm trying to not take this personally but believe me, if I wanted to back out I would have the integrity to say "Sorry, I've changed my mind". So do whatever you feel you need to do in order to get satisfaction from this. File a Deadbeat/Backout report, and I will respond inline explaining my position and let whomever is reading it decide for themselves. Hell, I'll link it in my signature for future potential trading partners to see. If you want to go nuclear and give me a Negative then so be it, I'll send an appeal to the Mods and let them decide. Your call. Good luck on your future trades.
- Brent
Sent: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:46 am
by Anger Worm
How could a model's sword bend entirely around backwards when placed in a HARD BOX. Did the box get completely crushed? Everything was inserted snugly so that they would not rattle around and be damaged. I obviously didn't pack them SO carefully, then cram them in a box to the point that they broke, so explain to me if it was the post office or what. You're saying I carefully bubble wrapped everything, and then smashed it into a box?
As for assembled state, don't be ridiculous. Those models would take you 5 minutes to glue together. You're telling me a key aspect to the trade was that the models would be assembled FOR YOU? Like you don't know how to glue an arm to something? Are you SERIOUS?
My accusation stands. Something doesn't jive here.
As for doing what I need to do to get satisfaction... you took my money, now you're saying my models are destroyed and it's my fault. So I've basically paid shipping to get my own models destroyed. I don't care what your reasoning is, you're being completely unreasonable. Satisfaction? How can I get any satisfaction when I'm being totally screwed?
You haven't proposed any solution but sending me my own stuff back broken, which basically screws me. I don't see how I have any option other than a negative feedback. I'm not unreasonable, and I obviously wanted to complete a successful trade since I paid you and mailed your items the NEXT DAY. You're the one that messaged me telling me I'm totally beat for this exchange.
Sent: Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:08 am
by kung leao
So let me make sure that I understand you correctly -
1. You believe that I wanted out of the trade, but did not have the testicular fortitude to just back out and take the hit.
2. In order to effect this backout, I made up a story about your models being damaged
3. In order to back up my story, I actually damaged and disassembled the models myself, then carefully packaged them back up for shipping to you.
And seriously, I'm not saying I expected everything to be assembled, but by your own words, most of it was. And I'm not saying there was a piece was broken off here and there (par for the course when shipping assembled models), I mean models were completely disassembled, which to some would be a plus but it was simply not what I was looking for here. I was expecting A and got B, and B is not what I was hoping for. That's all.
Do what you've got to do. It's late, later over by you, way too late to be arguing over this. Good night.
- Brent
Sent: Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:08 am
by Anger Worm
I believe that you may have decided to get out of the trade and are using damaged models as an excuse. Obviously if you wanted to back out of the trade you wouldn't say "I want to back out of the trade" because that's clearly something that's frowned upon on these boards.
And once again I ask was the box crushed? You haven't stated whether the package arrived completely crushed, simply that the models were bent, some bent "all around" like the Nomad's sword. Obviously from the pictures I showed you they didn't leave me this way, and I also demonstrated that I packaged them very well. So was it the post office?
As for assembling models, you're really grasping at straws. You're saying that our entire agreement hinged on them being more assembled than they are?
Here's a couple of possible solutions:
1) I'll pay for the bitz for the nomad and stannis that broke. That would take care of the supposed shipping damage.
2) You could resend me the unassembled models and I'll pay for the shipping back, and assemble them for you, AND ship them back to you. That would take care of your issue with the fact that you received models in the same pieces they're sold in, rather than glued together like you apparently needed them to be.
Both those proposed solutions would solve what you say is wrong with the situation.
This doesn't stop with "do what you gotta do" on my end. You still have money and models from me. I'm proposing actual solutions to what you've said has been wrong with my end. When I make an agreement with someone I make the effort to complete that agreement.
Re: H: Circle Orboros W: Khador, Mercs/Minions, $
Sent: Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:54 am
by kung leao
Any way you slice it I'm backing out of the trade, which yes we both know is frowned upon on the boards. Again, if I simply wanted to cancel the trade I would have told you so from the get go. I wanted this trade to work, modifying the original trade thread to ask for additional Merc models, and ordering models from my local store in anticipation of receiving these.
The box itself was not crushed, no. However, the models were packed in pretty tightly. Not tightly as in "tamped down with a chimney sweep brush", but tightly as in "damage is far more likely to occur than if a slightly bigger box were used".
"As for assembling models, you're really grasping at straws. You're saying that our entire agreement hinged on them being more assembled than they are?"
Way down below, I asked you for the condition of the Merc models. If you had instead answered "they're mostly disassembled, the Jacks in particular, and some of the Steelheads need bits glued back on but that's no big deal", or something to that effect, I would have responded "Sorry, I'm looking for something less 'project' and more 'ready to play'", or something along those lines.
The reason behind this thinking is that between work, family, and other endeavors I simply do not have the time to assemble an army these days. That's why so many of the Circle models remain disassembled. So yes, my expectations were set to a primarily assembled set of models. When that did not happen I was sorely disappointed, and that feeling of disappointment was compounded by the fact that I had given you what was by any reasonable metric a very favorable deal. So rather than regret this trade and have the models sit on my shelf, I'm calling it off and taking the hit.
And here we are. By the time you read this, you will have received your refund through PayPal. The Merc models will go out today and you will have a confirmation number by this afternoon, guaranteed.
Sent: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:55 pm
by Anger Worm
So you're saying that packing the models snugly destroyed them and bent the nomad sword all the way around? You're saying I carefully bubble wrapped them, put them in a hard box and then a padded mailer further protecting them, but in fact I destroyed them myself?
Here's a picture of almost-200lb me standing on the same box I used to pack your models.
As for the assembly:
The models that came unassembled in their original pieces were:
Renegade
Magnus
4 Halberdiers (brand-new, partially assembled)
Driller (NiB)
So let's not split hairs. You're about 8 dabs of glue from having everything fully assembled.
I want my $5 shipping fee returned since you're effectively breaking our agreement over nothing. I'm already out my time and effort, and now my models are supposedly severely damaged.
Sent: Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:46 pm
by kung leao
I don't know how the sword and Stannis got bent, but they were bent. What I do know is that you can't fit an assembled heavy Warjack into a small flat rate mailing box without breaking it apart. If you hadn't cheaped out on shipping and spent the extra cash for a medium box, we would not be having this discussion.
Here is the tracking number for the Mercs, according to the receipt you should have them on Monday:
0310 3490 0001 7311 6236
The bent pieces have been restored to the best of my ability, and you are delusional if you think this army was "8 dabs of glue" away from being assembled. You will undoubtedly look at the models and say "these aren't damaged, he just wanted out of the trade", and you'll be partly correct. I don't care. It's done.
If this happened a month ago, I would have either sucked it up or tried to work something out with you. I don't want to bore you with personal details, but I got some news about 3 weeks ago that puts silly crap like this in perspective. If getting a negative rating on Bartertown is the worst thing that happens next week, my toes are gonna be tapping.
Sent: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:00 pm
by Anger Worm
So if this had happened a month ago, instead of stonewalling me and ignoring my reasonable suggestions you would have been reasonable and worked out an equitable arrangement with me? I gave you two reasonable, even generous suggestions to solve your problem, both of which you ignored.
You've spoken a lot about testicular fortitude and how you would just own up to backing out if that's what you wanted to do. Well, what about owning up to your agreement? I fulfilled my end and then when you complained about what most people would consider minor issues I was STILL reasonable, and offered to fix the problem
If you hadn't cheaped out on shipping and spent the extra cash for a medium box, we would not be having this discussion.
It's not a discussion when you flat out dictate everything to me. You took my money and my models, then sent them back to me supposedly broken. Where's the discussion? You completely ignored everything I've said. And guess what, here's the logic behind my thinking: a smaller box means models don't shake and get damaged. Once again you're acting like I would carefully bubble wrap each item and then FORCE them to fit in the box. I placed each in in such a way that it fit, and that was that. Cheaped out? Look how much time and care I put into getting your items packaged.
1. You believe that I wanted out of the trade, but did not have the testicular fortitude to just back out and take the hit.
Now you're nitpicking your way to back out of a trade you agreed to because your so testicularly fortitudinous you don't follow on your word. You're right, that's what real men do, they nitpick to break agreements.
I want my shipping costs recouped. $4.97 via paypal. Then I'm done with you.
Sent: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:03 pm
by kung leao
<Sigh> No, one month ago I would have buckled and accepted something that I did not find acceptable, or attempted to work out some kind of deal that would have made this more palatable, also known as "polishing a turd". Today, I'm saying "this is not acceptable". It was a decision primarily based on feeling, but there you have it.
Once again, I was expecting A. You delivered B. I do not want B. B goes back to you. This is not nitpicking, this is observable fact.
Your suggestions were not reasonable, but cumbersome and time consuming. Shipping them back to you for assembly and return is nonsense, and replacing them through PP not only takes the type of time frame referred to by Scientists as "For Damn Ever", but may not be ultimately necessary.
Shipping costs recouped? You got it. However in what is surely a massive display of chutzpah, I will ask you how you set up the original payment where PayPal didn't take a cut. I'd hate to send you $5 and have it get knocked down to $4.73 or whatever sized chunk they're gouging these days.
Re: H: Circle Orboros W: Khador, Mercs/Minions, $
Sent: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:57 pm
by kung leao
Never mind. $5.50, for the original expense and in anticipation of PayPal fees, has been transferred to your account. Enjoy your weekend.