Dragonfangs Backout

[Dragonfangs]

NO SIR!

You state with CONVICTION (and blue text) that "There IS a rule saying that a broken agreement is "reportable," provided proof is provided.
You're welcome to change your mind at any time before models are shipped. If it's before an agreement is made, then you're fine. If it's after, they you're violating a well established rule of Bartertown."

I have reviewed the rule post and I see nothing that covers what you said. I see nothing that even mentions broken agreements. Nothing defines the time table of "before agreement", etc. Nothing that defines the break points you mentioned. Where is this "well established" rule?

I ask you to point me to it and the best you can do is "it's in there". Well NO IT IS NOT! There are also NO LINKS in the rules post. Perhaps you all discussed adding it and never did, but it certainly is not there now.

I think you guys owe me a straight answer, a reversal of the negative feedback, and an appology.

[Dragonfangs]

Subject: Bartertown Forum Rules

Please note that this is a "living" document and will be occasionally updated. I will present the rules in a very concise fashion, and the explanations can follow later as needed. Please note that these rules apply to all Bartertown forums unless specifically stated otherwise. These rules are the most recent, updated version and there is no 'grandfather clause.'

The first rule, the proverbial ...Rule #0: The buck stops with me. If you have a Question/Problem, ASK FIRST.
Just click on one of those little buttons at the bottom of the post: email, AIM, or private message. I generally get back to people within three to five days. Please be patient with me, as I have other professional and personal commitments that take priority over Bartertown. If I am not available or you need an immediate response, try contacting one of the following people: MagickalMemories, Porkuslime, Nuwisha, Lord_Nagash, or Morlock-Bloodletter.

The Bartertown Staff (names in green or red) are people who have volunteered their time to help police the forums and generally keep things rolling. They are empowered by me to add, modify, or delete posts as appropriate. If you have a problem with them or their actions, talk to one of the Administrators (red names) about it. However, if you can't provide a reasoned and logical complaint (as defined in the Appeals Section below) you will be ignored.

This also means that I am the final arbitrator in all disputes. Believe me, I'd rather leave this unsaid but there are people who need everything spelled out. When it comes to these forums, my interpretation stands. Don't think you're being clever if you play rules-lawyer with any of us - the spirit as well as the letter of the law holds sway here. Of course, no one is always right and I'm always open to a well-reasoned appeal of a decision (see below for more on that).


Rule #1: PLAY FAIR.
We all learned this rule in Kindergarten. Don't cheat, tell the whole truth, help out "around the house," be nice to others, be responsible for what you do, follow the rules, and treat others how you'd like to be treated yourself. Everything else from here on down is either administrivia or specific examples of how to PLAY FAIR. The adult version of this rule sounds like this: Don't Be A D*ck.

Rule #1a: ASK PERMISSION. DO NOT SEEK FORGIVENESS.
If you're not sure, ask FIRST. If you're not sure, ask FIRST. Do not go ahead and do something, then beg forgiveness later. This is one of the few cases I will over-rule a more merciful staff member who might get to you first. There is no forgiveness to be had, there is only permission to be asked beforehand.

Rule #2: These boards are to be used for BUY/SELL/TRADE PURPOSES ONLY (this includes the Bad Trader Forums).
If you have a gripe with another poster, take it to Private Messages or use the appropriate complaint forum - Deadbeat/Backout OR Bad Trader Reporting. If the situation is particularly egregious, notify one of the BT Staff members.

Please do not start topics regarding politics, religion, race, or other sensitive issues unless they directly affect the Bartertown community AND relate to gaming. For example, Net Neutrality is an issue that is Very Important to us. Islamic extremism on the internet? Not so much. Religious people who have a hate-on for Dungeons & Dragons starting a petition to have it banned? That's relevant. Make sense?
Should you start flaming or cluttering up the boards with your irrelevant posts, your post will be nuked and you will be warned. Disregard the warning and you will be suspended. Do it again and you will be banned.

Rule#3: Multiple User Accounts: One User Account Per Person, One Person Per User Account ONLY. EVER!
Having multiple accounts does not make one look like a trustworthy person. That is why it is forbidden. It makes you look like you're violating rule #1.

Furthermore, you may not share your Bartertown user account with anyone else. The only exception to this may occur with specific written administrative permission, and that's when a minor has an account and their parent or legal guardian is 'looking over their shoulder.' If you're a minor and your parent wants to see what you're doing here or post as you, have them contact me. I will require some manner of proof that they are who they say they are.

If you've forgotten your password, DO NOT CREATE A NEW ACCOUNT. Email Linrandir@bartertown.com for a reset. Be prepared to prove that you are who you claim to be.

Rule #4: Ad format: Use a proper DESCRIPTIVE Title & Content
If you want to post your ad in multiple relevant forums, which is good, then please title your ad appropriately.

Good example: "Have Eldar and Tau, want to trade for Dark Elves and Empire." This will fit NICELY in the 40K and Fantasy sections!

Bad example: "Have Eldar and Tau." If this shows up in the fantasy section, it will be nuked!
Another BAD example: "Have stuff."

Rule 4a: You are also responsible for accurately describing all items that you are trading or selling.
That includes version, condition, assembly status, converted or not, painted or not, any missing pieces and any other information you think might be helpful. Failure to do so may result in the other party filing a Backout Trader or Bad Trader report against you.

Rule #5: Do not hijack other people's threads.
If you want to talk trade with someone who has posted a response to a third party's thread, take it to email, Private Message (PM) or start your own thread.

Do not attack people's ads if you feel they don't conform to Bartertown rules (Please also note rule #1). Notify a moderator, follow rule #0, and then let it go. We will make the appropriate decision(s).

Additionally, do not attack people's ads EVER. That means no commenting on prices, conditions, quantities, the trader themselves, past history, or anything else that is not directly and relevantly linked to the current trade ad and or transaction(s).

If you feel your thread has been hijacked or comments are going WAY off topic, please contact Bartertown Staff via PM and we will investigate. On the other hand, if you want to take your OWN thread off topic, feel free, but no calling foul if someone else then takes your off-topic even further off topic.

Rule #6: Please make sure to read the Good & Bad Trader Forum. viewforum.php?f=48 .
It is YOUR responsibility to make sure that the person you're dealing with is legitimate. Threatening us with legal action won't get you anywhere.
When posting to the Bad Trader or Deadbeats & Backouts forums, please read and follow the rules posted at the top of each forum.

Rule #7: Be Polite (So important, we said it twice!)
Abusive or inappropriate language towards any other Bartertown user is not acceptable - doubly so when directed at a Staff member who notifies you of a rule violation. We reserve the right to escalate the consequence you've earned if you decide to vent at us. The definition of "abusive or inappropriate language" starts by applying Rule #1. Do note that Bartertown Staff members have the right to determine what qualifies as abusive or inappropriate at their discretion.

Rule #8: eBay & other Auction Sites, Stores, and Advertisements.
Any eBay or other off-site advertisements found wandering inappropriately (TBD by BT staff) will be executed with extreme prejudice. Repeat offenders will be banned from the site. This includes people who try to sneak links/banners for their stores or current auctions into their signature files. This stricture applies to Off-site Trade/Want/Sale list hosting, as well as blogs that offer painting services or items for sale, unless you have specific written administrative permission stating otherwise. See rule #15 for what we consider a store.

Rule #8a: Bartertown Advertisers May Ignore Rule #8.
Bartertown Advertisers - with darker blue usernames - are encouraged to put links & banners to their sites in their signature files and post in their respective forums. Bartertown Users are encouraged to visit the Advertisers' stores and spend money there. The advertisers make BT free for you to use.

Rule #8b: Don't Play Both Sides Against Each Other
Do not post an item on eBay and post a trade ad for it on Bartertown. That is unfair to eBay buyers and especially Bartertowners. If we find out you're doing this, you can expect a month's vacation.

Helpful Hint: The community does not care about your standing on eBay or anywhere else. Bartertown references are the proverbial currency of the realm if you want to show how trustworthy you are.

Rule #9: Concerning 'acceptable' trade goods people have asked about:
Nothing that violates the law in the United States. That includes copyright law, federal law, state law, local law...get the idea?
No weapons of any kind. This is not a political statement, this is a rule of the website as decided by Trademaster Adam and myself.
NO FIREARMS OR WEAPONS.
Anyone who posts an ad asking for firearms or other weapons in trade for anything will be immediately and permanently banned.
Unacceptable Trade Goods People Have Asked About: (and yes, people have asked!)
• Guns; Any weapon that fires projectiles with the intent to maim or pierce the skin and cause bodily harm or kill.,
• Rifles,
• Shotguns,
• Automatic or semi-automatic Firearms,
• cans of spam,
• bows,
• arrows,
• crossbows,
• Firearm or archery accessories are NOT acceptable.That means no magazines (what holds the bullets), clips, parts, shells, reloading equipment, gunpowder, ammunition, sights, or anything else I deem related to such.
• shuriken,
• shaken,
• Animals or animal parts are NOT acceptable trade materials. We're just not going to go there. For that matter, human beings or any of their constituent parts aren't acceptable trade materials either.
• sharpened spoons,
• blades of any length or type, (regardless of their condition, display status, etc.)
• polearms,
• explosives,
• combustibles - though cans of spray paint and primer are acceptable,
• blunt-force instruments (batons, nightsticks, tonfa, escrima, etc) or boots-to-the-head. That includes practice weapons like SCA and Olympic fencing gear, dulled aluminum samurai swords, tree branches, darts, plastic kitchenware and cooking pans.

Also - note that all display weapons, even if permanently or semi-permanently attached to their display stand, are still considered weapons.

If you think something MIGHT be a Weapon, Ask a Staff Member FIRST before posting!

Acceptable Trade Goods People Have Asked About:
• Paintball markers/guns and accessories/equipment
• Airsoft markers/guns and accessories/equipment
• "Boffer" style weapons made of PVC pipe and foam padding are acceptable. If you have questions whether or not your item qualifies as "boffer" then contact me before you post. I will clarify.

Rule #10: Use discretion when trading for adult-related material.
ie DVDs, VHS, or whatever. There are a lot of minors who trade on this website and we don't need some angry parent threatening to shut us down because their kid picked up a p0rn0 DVD.

Rule #11: ITL or Reference intimidation
ITL (AKA Reference) intimidation is a first-offense ban.

What qualifies as ITL intimidation?
In its most direct form, ITL intimidation is when someone says something like "If you give me a bad trader report, I'm gonna give you one."
Anything that is not so direct, like "If you don't give me a good trade report, you'll regret it" also may qualify. Note that giving someone retaliatory feedback qualifies as well. No free hits.
If you are not sure, please contact either myself or one of the moderators. The equivalent level of evidence required for filing a bad trade report is necessary: emails with headers, PMs, and so forth.

YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO LEAVE FEEDBACK. If you don't, you can't really complain when someone says "this guy's a jerk - he never left me any feedback!" Should you just forget and someone leaves you what you consider to be an unjust reference, please see the 30-day feedback appeal rule below. I would consider leaving an appropriate feedback for them in exchange for having your own feedback edited acceptable and not 'intimidation' per se. Everyone makes mistakes, and not everyone is abundantly patient.

Rule #11a: Statute of Limitations
You now have thirty (30) calendar days after a feedback has been posted on the ITL to appeal it. Please note this does NOT apply to properly submitted Bad Trader Reports.

Rule #12: Digital paraphernalia (accounts, items, cards, etc) Are Not Acceptable Trade Goods.
Do not post ads selling or soliciting MMORPG accounts, items, or currency. No Everquest, no Diablo 2, no Star Wars Galaxies, no World of Warcraft, or anything else in the multi-player online roleplaying game genre. Do not think you are being clever by selling a CD and sticking a piece of paper with your account information in the package with it. That still counts as a violation and you will be banned if we find out about it.

Furthermore, no online collectible card game items/accounts/currencies. If you've got a super-awesome card on Magic Online, DO NOT come here to trade it.

If you have a WoW trading card that can affect the online WoW game, contact an Administrator BEFORE you post it for trade.

Rule #13: Ad Posting & "Post Bumping"
Please note that Bartertown users are limited to one topic/ad per forum per seven calendar days.
For those of you who don't understand this: Look at a calendar. If I post an ad on 3 July in the 40k forum I may not repost an ad to that forum until 10 July. That is seven calendar days. It's a legal term.

Example:
Let's say I have some LOTR Riders of Rohan I want to get rid of and other miscellaneous stuff from WHFB and 40K. I can post an ad with those items together in the LOTR, WHFB and 40K forums. Seven calendar days later, I can post another ad with the same items OR I can edit the ad at any time.
What I can't do is relist the items every day in each forum.

Helpful Hint: The idea here is to prevent excessive promotion of one's trade/sale items or discussion topics. Users are prohibited via software from making more than one new topic per seven days, but there are other ways to self-promote. It's awkward wording, but "post bumping" is a term understood by the greatest number of people.

If you've got items that fit into multiple categories, you may cross-post given the stricture above. You may update your ad as you see fit provided your purpose is not to attempt any form of bumping.
Updating an ad is not bumping if there have been changes made to the inventory or pricing presented in the ad. It is bumping if "hey i still have this stuff available" is all that's written, or something to that extent.
Interest shown in an ad is not bumping. If you see something posted a few days ago that catches your fancy (and it's not your ad!) replying is not bumping.

Rule #14: NO ONE MAY GIVE THEMSELVES ANY ITL FEEDBACK WHATSOEVER.
The sole exception to this, as anyone who sees an Admin's feedback will note, is when we are testing the ITL recording and display system. Note that we are very specific about what the feedback is. Violation of this will result in immediate and permanent banning.

Rule #15: If you are a business, you must advertise with us.
This includes painters, ebay stores, online forums, artists, online stores, physical stores, and any permutation I missed wherein you operate any kind of for-profit entity and/or take money, goods, or services in exchange for goods or services. If you're not sure, contact me and we'll sort something out.
Advertisers support Bartertown and keep it free for the users. We offer a good deal with very impressive site statistics. Contact me (Linrandir) or MagickalMemories for more details. You can also look here: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=74080

Rule #15a: Clarification..If you are operating a business, and you're conducting transactions or soliciting here without our consent, we will ask you to advertise. If you decline, we respectfully request you cease *all* activities on the site and leave. That includes people who have advertisements for goods or services in their signature files or people who solicit via PM. Things like "I'm a painter for hire - PM me for details" when you're not advertising here are just plain disrespectful and rude to the community.

Rule #15b: Forum owners: Talk to us about banner exchanges! The internet is plenty big enough, provided everyone plays fair.

You like this site? THANK THE ADVERTISERS BY SPENDING MONEY WITH THEM (oh, and tell them you heard about their store from us!).


------------------------
Disciplinary Measures
Would that these be not necessary, but they are. Please note that severity of offense (and therefore level of disciplinary action taken) is at the discretion of Bartertown Staff. Also note that any language deemed abusive or inappropriate towards any Bartertown Staff member or other Bartertown user will incur the penalties below at the discretion of the Admin or Moderator. Repetition of offense incurs the next higher penalty as appropriate.

First Violation
Violating any of these rules the first time will, depending on severity, earn you the following: A formal board warning and/or a two week account suspension. Note that in 99% of cases you will only receive a formal warning unless you do something to escalate the situation. In that case, the consequence you earn will be escalated as well.

Second Violation
Again depending on severity, you will earn one of three consequences:
1. Two Week account suspension
2. One Month Account suspension
3. Account Termination with negative ITL reference left.

Third Violation
Only one outcome: You are banned from the site. Your account will be inactivated, your email address will be banned, and a negative reference will be left for you on the ITL with as much information on you as we can gather.
_________________________
Process of Appeal
Very simple. Email me (Linrandir) and present your case. If you are appealing a decision I have made, your appeal will be forwarded to another Administrator who was not directly involved in your situation. Be advised that correct logic, evidence (as per a Bad Trader Report) and clear thinking will get you farther than playing rules lawyer, arguing semantics, threats, personal attacks, or appealing to my sentimental nature. Use of any logical fallacies in your appeal will not be looked upon kindly. I, or another uninvolved Administrator, will investigate the situation and render a final judgment. We reserve the right to modify consequences as we deem appropriate.

Do Not make me ask for you to provide evidence. If you appeal something without evidence you are wasting everyone's time and I will not dignify you with a reply.
Do Not send multiple emails, Private Messages, or other communications beyond the first unless you have something substantive to add. A "reminder," however well intentioned, is not substantive.

Once you've been contacted to confirm receipt of your appeal, the wheels will turn until a decision has been reached. You will be notified when the decision has been reached. Appeals will either be granted or denied; Bartertown Staff reserve the right to render judgment and issue consequences based on criteria of our choosing. We are not obligated to share said criteria with anyone.

[MaximumTaco]

Breaking an agreement / backing out of a trade falls under the same reporting rules as given in the Backout/Bad Trader listings.

A question that keeps coming up is "What constitutes a trade/purchase/agreement?" This is a good question and I am formally defining it now:

A Bartertown 'Trade' occurs when both parties have agreed to a transaction, be it a purchase (ie buyer-seller) or exhange of items and/or services, and have agreed to the terms of said transaction.
For example. Morlock and I agree to trade his Warmachine Cryx for my Warhammer Fantasy Chaos. We negotiate what we're trading specifically, we negotiate shipping terms, and we negotiate a time-frame for said shipping. Once we agree - and this can be as simple as "you're cool with that?" or as complex as sending a separate email that states the exact terms of everything agreed to along with a request to reply-with-agreement - the Trade is on.
If something unexpected happens, like a family emergency or unexpected deployment, it is the responsibility of the person in question to let the other party know what's happened within a reasonable time frame.

Source: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=45472

From the same page...

The Bad Trader forum is for reporting people who have ripped you off, not someone who said mean words to you. Don't come here to gripe and moan - legitimate complaints only.

The definition of legitimate complaint will meet at least 3 of the 4 additional criteria after the first listed below :

* If you have not received your part of the trade/purchase within a reasonable time after you've sent what you agreed to,
* If you have tried contacting the other party and they have not replied to your satisfaction within a reasonable time,
* If they are being deceptive (and you can prove it) or otherwise ignoring you,
* If you don't get what you bought,
* If the items arrive in a different condition than what they were promised (ie damaged or pieces missing),

Also...

Why yes, they are the same as for the Bad Trader Forum. FOLLOW THEM.

Source: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=62717

I don't think you're going to get very far aggressively arguing against an admin about what the rules are. If you're still confused, you agreed to a trade and your trade partner has "not received your part of the trade/purchase" and never will, since you've backed out. The only reason your partner isn't putting a Bad Trader report on you is because there is a forum called Deadbeats/Backouts to fill the niche of annoying but not-quite-BTR realm of stuff like this. Backing out is *edit* for the guy you backed out on, especially if s/he might have had another opportunity to deal with someone but was holding those items for you, but it's less severe than a Bad Trader report. FYI, I really don't think you'll have much success trying to say that there is no such thing as a rule against backing out of a trade when we have an entire subforum dedicated to warning people about that kind of annoyance. Your tone in arguing is probably reflecting on you much more negatively than this report would have. Even the negative reference you now have says very clearly that you found a better deal elsewhere - anyone who reads this thread will see that; it's not your obligation to continue to get screwed once you realize that might be what's happening, but you do have to live with the relatively minor consequence of a backout report.

Even if it was just because you realized you could get a far better deal elsewhere/whatever, just suck it up and say it -

You - "Sorry, I found a much better deal elsewhere and couldn't pass it up";
Other guy - "That sucks for me - I'm annoyed so I will file a backout";
You - "OK, that's fair - I did back out on the trade and this type of report will have very little effect on my ability to trade, clearly I did back out on you but for an evidently logical reason"
Other guy - "I am still annoyed but have vented and this is concluded"

That's all this had to be, calm down before your next post. This might prompt a clarification of the rules on backing out of a trade, but I honestly think you're only hurting yourself if you keep on trying to convince the entire forum (and admins?) that there's no rule that permits filing a backout report when someone backs out of a trade.

[Dragonfangs]

The post Taco is quoting is NOT in the BTown Forum rules. The post is NOT referenced in the BTown forum rules via text, link, etc. It is not even in the BTown Forum Rules SECTION of the Forum.
I have never seen/read that post before now.

If you read the whole BTown Forum rules post there is no way to come to any other honest conclusion other than "Son of a gun.... he is right. We have a gap in our rules document"
Then you can go make the updates you want to have in there. I'm fine if you fix it. I'll abide by it going forward.

What's not fair is to punish me in a negative way (feedback, not this post) for not having read a post in the Good/Bad trader area.

so again Eric - I think you owe me an appology and a fix to my feedback score.

[getupandgo]

The post Taco is quoting is NOT in the BTown Forum rules. The post is NOT referenced in the BTown forum rules via text, link, etc. It is not even in the BTown Forum Rules SECTION of the Forum.
I have never seen/read that post before now.

If you read the whole BTown Forum rules post there is no way to come to any other honest conclusion other than "Son of a gun.... he is right. We have a gap in our rules document"
Then you can go make the updates you want to have in there. I'm fine if you fix it. I'll abide by it going forward.

What's not fair is to punish me in a negative way (feedback, not this post) for not having read a post in the Good/Bad trader area.

so again Eric - I think you owe me an appology and a fix to my feedback score.

Dude... you backed out of a deal after you agreed to do it... That is what this forum is for. To deal with people who waste other people's time, which is exactly what you did and what you are doing. You're not owed any apology, because you're in the wrong here.

Your insistence that you haven't done anything (even though you clearly have), and assertion that you have 3 days to back out in florida (even though this transaction occurred over state lines) has nothing to do with anything.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

It seems that you didn't read very thoroughly:

Subject: Bartertown Forum Rules

Rule #1: PLAY FAIR.
We all learned this rule in Kindergarten. Don't cheat, tell the whole truth, help out "around the house," be nice to others, be responsible for what you do, follow the rules, and treat others how you'd like to be treated yourself. Everything else from here on down is either administrivia or specific examples of how to PLAY FAIR. The adult version of this rule sounds like this: Don't Be A D*ck.

Rule #1a: ASK PERMISSION. DO NOT SEEK FORGIVENESS.
If you're not sure, ask FIRST. If you're not sure, ask FIRST. Do not go ahead and do something, then beg forgiveness later. This is one of the few cases I will over-rule a more merciful staff member who might get to you first. There is no forgiveness to be had, there is only permission to be asked beforehand.

Rule #1 covers your situation completely adequately. You did not play fair. You made a deal. Then you broke it.

You also violated Rule #1a as it applies between members, because you probably could have negotiated this situation out with papabearshane, if you had talked to him up front about what you were planning.

Lastly--you're claiming ignorance of the Bad Trader Rules?

Really?

[Dragonfangs]

First - I want to state I'm not arguing. I'm pleading my case which is required because shane took this public. I didn't mind this post.
I admitting my understanding of what went wrong and agreed to comply going forward. It should have ended there.

What followed is staff and others ganging in on me.
This has escalated the issue to a bad feedback rating. This does bother me as this is all based on a Bad Trader Forum rule which is NOT on of the 1-15 listed as the Laws of the Land around here.

It's clear in black and white (see rules post above)

@Sorrow - I disagree Rule 1 covers it. I did play fair. I changed my mind and let him know. No harm. no foul.
I've never read the Bad Trader area before yesterday. I check feedback scores and go from there. So sorry, I did not know the Bad Trader rule. If it is required knowledge, it should be at least referenced in the Main Rules post. It isn't.

again - all clear black and white above

The post Taco referenced DOES cover it. I'll admit that. It should probably be Rule 1b. However, CURRENTLY, it is NOT a rule.
Never-the-less, I already agreed to comply going forward.

As staff you guys should want to show impartial integrity, but here (despite complete proof on my part) you don't even want to admit you made a mistake in what you all claim the rules say.
The rules have a gap.
Fix the gap.
Fix my feedback score.
Regain your integrity.

[locust]

Read Rule #6. I've highlighted the appropriate bit.

Rule #6: Please make sure to read the Good & Bad Trader Forum. viewforum.php?f=48 .
It is YOUR responsibility to make sure that the person you're dealing with is legitimate. Threatening us with legal action won't get you anywhere.
When posting to the Bad Trader or Deadbeats & Backouts forums, please read and follow the rules posted at the top of each forum.

Which gets you the bit that was posted by MaximumTaco here:

Breaking an agreement / backing out of a trade falls under the same reporting rules as given in the Backout/Bad Trader listings.

A question that keeps coming up is "What constitutes a trade/purchase/agreement?" This is a good question and I am formally defining it now:

A Bartertown 'Trade' occurs when both parties have agreed to a transaction, be it a purchase (ie buyer-seller) or exhange of items and/or services, and have agreed to the terms of said transaction.
For example. Morlock and I agree to trade his Warmachine Cryx for my Warhammer Fantasy Chaos. We negotiate what we're trading specifically, we negotiate shipping terms, and we negotiate a time-frame for said shipping. Once we agree - and this can be as simple as "you're cool with that?" or as complex as sending a separate email that states the exact terms of everything agreed to along with a request to reply-with-agreement - the Trade is on.
If something unexpected happens, like a family emergency or unexpected deployment, it is the responsibility of the person in question to let the other party know what's happened within a reasonable time frame.

Source: viewtopic.php?f=44&t=45472

From the same page...

The Bad Trader forum is for reporting people who have ripped you off, not someone who said mean words to you. Don't come here to gripe and moan - legitimate complaints only.

The definition of legitimate complaint will meet at least 3 of the 4 additional criteria after the first listed below :

* If you have not received your part of the trade/purchase within a reasonable time after you've sent what you agreed to,
* If you have tried contacting the other party and they have not replied to your satisfaction within a reasonable time,
* If they are being deceptive (and you can prove it) or otherwise ignoring you,
* If you don't get what you bought,
* If the items arrive in a different condition than what they were promised (ie damaged or pieces missing),

Also...

Why yes, they are the same as for the Bad Trader Forum. FOLLOW THEM.

Source: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=62717

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

@Sorrow - I disagree Rule 1 covers it. I did play fair. I changed my mind and let him know. No harm. no foul.
I've never read the Bad Trader area before yesterday. I check feedback scores and go from there. So sorry, I did not know the Bad Trader rule. If it is required knowledge, it should be at least referenced in the Main Rules post. It isn't.

As has been pointed out, Rule # 6 covers your objection.

And "Fair" to me requires that you honour your commitments. You made a commitment. You broke your commitment.

As staff you guys should want to show impartial integrity, but here (despite complete proof on my part) you don't even want to admit you made a mistake in what you all claim the rules say.
The rules have a gap.
Fix the gap.
Fix my feedback score.
Regain your integrity.

You can throw feces around till the End Times; it won't change the fact that YOU are the person whose integrity has been diminished, by your own actions.

[Dragonfangs]

fyi
Sent: Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:49 pm
From: HarveyDent
To: Dragonfangs

hey there,

i just thought you should know -

someone contacted me - i think his username is 's_o_r_r_o_w' or something like that. he's a 'green' nickname which means that he's a business (i think).

anyways, he saw that i had accidentally left you double feedback for the IoB set you sold me and is trying to remove that extra feedback. why he's doing this i have no idea, but i thought you should know, and i think you should talk to an admin.

geoff

[Dragonfangs]

The personal attacks by the staff are unacceptable.
Completely uncalled for.
Screw all you guys

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

A couple of points of clarification:

1. I am a member of the Bartertown Watch. I am not a business or advertiser.
2. Investigation into member's conduct is not a "personal attack".
3. Correction of Feedback errors is not a personal attack.

[MagickalMemories]

1) Everyone who (a) is not staff or (b) does not have a DIRECT stake in this thread (i.e. involved with this trade) needs to STOP POSTING IN THIS THREAD IMMEDIATELY.
Yes. You were quoting the established rules and showing Dragonfangs where to find what he missed (had he followed my link on the previous page, he'd have found them, rather than assuming I was mistaken and erroneously (and absurdly) requesting an apology. That does not matter. What matters is that YOU ARE THREADJACKING. Please, read the rules regarding threadjacking again.

2) Dragonfangs, as you now see, our rules for posting BTR's and backouts are laid out fairly clearly. Had you bothered following and reading my links before spouting off, instead of presuming you knew what I was linking to, you may have managed to keep yourself from looking like such a fool.

3) Dragonfangs, ANY TIME there is a report of a Bad Trade or backed out trade, AT LEAST one staff member looks into it. This includes looking into the facts of the trade to ensure it's a legitimate report, as well as the references of BOTH users. Have you looked at your references lately? It seems two of them were undeserved. What s_o_r_r_o_w was doing was inquiring on the two you received from Harvey Dent because (a) they APPEARED to be from the same trade and (b) were a month apart. If, indeed, they are from the same trade, the last one should be removed. If not, then they're fine. Rather than arbitrarily remove one, s_o_r_r_o_w was DOING HIS HOMEWORK like a respectable and capable staff member should (good work, s_o_r_r_o_w).
As it turns out, you have at least one reference that is a duplicate for the same trade. ANY TIME we encounter this, we rectify it. It is not any indication that it is your fault, but we DO work to ensure that references are CLEARLY and PROPERLY represented. The removal of any extraneous references is because we happened to come across them and in no way a direct result of this back out report (though, "indirect" would probably be a valid assertion). FYI, there are actually members who PM staff to ask for the improper ref's to be removed when this happens.

4) As you repeatedly accused us of not knowing our own rules and demanding an apology for it, I will be turning the tables. Now that you see we were right about the rules, are you prepared to issue your own apology? Never expect to hold someone else to hold to ideals that you, yourself are unwilling to.

5)

The personal attacks by the staff are unacceptable.
Completely uncalled for.
Screw all you guys

Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.

There was no attack.
Have you read Rule # 7?

Rule #7: Be Polite (So important, we said it twice!)
Abusive or inappropriate language towards any other Bartertown user is not acceptable - doubly so when directed at a Staff member who notifies you of a rule violation. We reserve the right to escalate the consequence you've earned if you decide to vent at us. The definition of "abusive or inappropriate language" starts by applying Rule #1. Do note that Bartertown Staff members have the right to determine what qualifies as abusive or inappropriate at their discretion.

When you were scouring the rules for ways to prove us wrong, did you happen to notice the emboldened text?
I'll be expecting apology #2 for this. Please, post it here in this thread. No reason the apology shouldn't be made as publicly as your insult, which I quoted above. Right? Seems only logical to me.


@ all
My temper is worn pretty thin here, folks. I suggest you 'toe the line" on the rules here in this thread from here on out, lest I follow through with indiscriminate suspensions. I've had enough of the threadjacking.

Eric

[Ironhide]

You don't like the decision the staff has made, Dragonfangs; then appeal it to Linrandir. His info can be found here: memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4