Birchm Backout/Deadbeat

[joko12]

I hate doing this but if you don't ever tell me whats going on and I have to constantly send you messages to find out information it makes it even harder.

So back on Aug 25th Birchm asked about a wood elf army I was selling. Told him I would sell it to him for cheap. He agreed.

Then he said he was having problems with his credit card should be fixed soon, but he could send me a money order or check.

I told him I could wait a little while until the credit card got worked out.

He would never contact me about any updates on his card. Even though we was logging in all the time.

I would send him msg's to see how things were going and it would take him a while to respond even though he was still logging in and reading them because the msg's would be gone from my outbox and i would check his log in time.

Finally I told him he could send me a money order and he has not yet replied to my last msg that I sent him.

I sen't him another msg last night and still no word.

The reason this whole ordeal makes me frustrated is because I passed up four other offers on the army because he was so sure he was buying it. If he still wants to buy it then I will delete this post but it looks like its not happening and I am going to have to try and re-sell it.

Here is a full list of our msg's

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:02 am
by Birchm

Yes I did, let me see if I can manage a MO at this point, grad school started up again, looking at over 1k in books. Life is hard when you have to work only with cash.

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:55 am
by joko12

Did you get my last msg?

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:13 am
by joko12

If you want to send a money order or check here is my address

don't want to show my address but its in there at this spot

But if not then let me know

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:38 am
by Birchm

Hey man, sorry, I never got your address as to the MO, or at least I don't see it looking back on our conversation. Either way, at this point Money Order is tricky because I've had to basically pay all my other expenses with cash. I understand if you're fed up with waiting. Trust me, this has been extremely frustrating.

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:28 am
by joko12

Hey man hate to do this to you, but its been almost three weeks now.

If you don't want to do a money order or personal check I am going to post this as a back out.

I have had 4 other people ask me about this army and I told them all no because you said you were going to buy it.

You also said that you would send a money order if that was fine with me which I said I was.

I am sorry your having problems with your credit card but there are other ways to get the funds.

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:28 pm
by Birchm

Crappy, haven't heard anything from the credit card company, and they haven't removed the fraudulent payment either.

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:39 am
by joko12

How's it going man?

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:44 pm
by joko12

Its cool just wondering how things are going

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:23 pm
by Birchm

Crap, I could've sworn I replied to it. Still nothing, they said it would only take about a week, but that was two weeks ago. Sigh. I'm really sorry about this.

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:20 pm
by joko12

Just wondering if you got my last msg thanks

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:13 am
by joko12

Hey man hows it going? Have you been able to get that fraud thing worked out? Just wanted to see how things are going.

Josh

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:01 am
by joko12

Wow that does suck, its cool man no worries I was just seeing whats up, hopefully that gets fixed asap.

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:58 am
by Birchm

If I was backing out I would say so, trust me this is much more inconvenient than it is for you, my go to credit card is limited to a 50 dollar limit because of this damn fraud issue, I was in the middle of buying stuff from other people, and I can't pay them through paypal any quicker than I can pay you, nor can I buy anything without cash in my day to day life. It is incredibly annoying.

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:54 am
by joko12

I don't mean to bug you, and not trying to sound rude or anything either, but I just wanted to make sure you were not backing out on me on the deal. Cause I have been turning down other people assuming you were still working on getting things worked out.

Just wanted to know, I am not in a rush to get rid of the models, I just don't want to be wasting time.

Thanks again,

Josh

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:57 pm
by joko12

That sucks well just keep me posted I don't mind doing the money order thing though

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:32 pm
by joko12

Any updates???

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:22 am
by joko12

ok sounds great!!!

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:26 pm
by Birchm

You take it to the post office, and they give you cash for the value of the MO. Let me call my credit card company to see if the issue was resolved, cause a Money Order will take at least 3 days to get to you, and I'd like to avoid that if possible.
Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:17 am
by joko12

Whatever works for you, I have never gotten a money order before. Do I take it to the post office and they give me the money or do I take it to the bank?

Either one works for me though, whichever you prefer.

Josh

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:56 am
by Birchm

Hey, thought I'd give you a quick heads up, I am having issues with paypal, would you want a MO, or to wait for me to get it worked out. Let me know, thanks.

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:20 pm
by joko12

Paypal works best

my email is joko1@umbc.edu

as soon as payment is sent I mail the items out.

Josh

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:46 am
by Birchm

Yes, I'd be interested, sorry for not replying, what payment methods do you prefer?

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:53 am
by joko12

Are you still interested in the Wood Elves I have other people asking about them but don't want to get rid of them if your still wanting them.

Josh

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:21 am
by joko12

So retail on those guys is about 220.

So for all of that I would say 105 shipped.

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:21 am
by joko12

So retail on those guys is about 220.

So for all of that I would say 105 shipped.

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:10 am
by Birchm

Understood, also, how much would you want just for:

Waywatcher Lord

12 Wardancers

1 Orion painted table top with hounds.

1 treeman painted well

24 dryads

1 dryacha painted

I'd want either the painted or the primed drycha, if there's a difference in price I'd obviously go for the cheaper.

Thanks so much for the quick replies.

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:48 am
by joko12

Generally the larger lot you buy the cheaper it is.

So i will break it down. All are painted unless stated otherwise.

Waywatcher Lord

1 Converted Waywatcher Lord

1 Waywatcher

12 Wardancers

1 Orion painted table top with hounds.

2 war eagles bare metal

1 Great eagle

1 treeman painted well

14 glade guard on horses

24 dryads sorry not 32 only 24

1 dryacha painted

1 dryacha primed

And that is the whole army.

Retail is around 280.

I will sell the whole lot shipped for 140.

Thats a great deal. Actually a steal, but I need them gone because I am moving soon.

Let me know what you think.

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:20 am
by Birchm

I didn't know if you wanted to part out or not, which is why I asked for the whole lot. I also don't know if your pricing changes based on whether I buy the whole thing, or only want to buy parts of it.

I would be very happy to pick up just the treeman and the dryads, maybe the heroes depending on which ones you have, and the waywatchers, depending on whether they're the OOP versions or newer. But if the price is right I'd also be happy to pick up the entire thing. I already have a large WE army, but it's very non-tree spirit centered, which is why your stuff kinda jumped out.

Let me know.

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Wed Aug 25, 2010 8:08 am
by joko12

Hmm the whole lot?

Well there is actully more stuff then what I listed as well.

There is a great eagle,

A couple of hero's

And some little OOP print eagles.

Also a couple waywatchers

Would you want all of them too???

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:53 am
by Birchm

Any idea how much cash you'd want for the Wood Elves lot? Thanks.

[Ironhide]

WTF? He's still talking to you. His last PM was yesterday. It is obvious by his replies that he is having problems due to something that happened with his credit card, but he still seems eager to go through with the deal. This Backout report is premature in my opinion.

[joko12]

Money Orders and checks don't require you do use a credit card sorry its been over three weeks soon to be pushing a month.

And if you read the full post he was not contacting me!

I had to pm him to see what was going on. And even then he would not reply until I sent him another msg saying did you get my last msg?

So sorry your wrong on this one.

[joko12]

Supposed to be "to use a credit card" not "do use a credit card"

[Ironhide]

Not everyone gets on here everyday, or every other day for that matter. In one of his PMs, he even states that he thought he had replied to a PM from you. Some people don't even reply to PMs until they have something to report. Almost every ref that Birchm has, states that he has good communication. If you had other offers for the items, and knew that he was having trouble getting the money together, why didn't you just tell him that this wasn't working for you; and you wanted to go with a different trader? I'm sure he would have understood.

[joko12]

Once again you did not read the whole post he was on everyday I was checking the log in times, and when my msgs were gone from my inbox I knew that he had been on.

But he was not responding. Yes one of them says O I thought I responded to the pm but he didn't.

And I did mention that I was getting other offers on the items and he said he wanted them still and it would only be a couple more days until everything was worked out. So I waited a gave him a nice fair chance of a few days before I said anything again.

So like a good trader I turned down the other people so that he could get his items like he said he wanted.

Then time kept going by and no fix to the problem, ignoring my pm's and saying he responded when he didn't I don't care he can write I thought I responded to sound like he was trying, but that can also be a great excuse for o man he caught me, better come up with something quick.

You can say whatever you want I am still right on the matter.

[kturock]

3 things..

1st. it almost looks like a questionable case, since the buyer said something about a fraud case.
At that point, I'd refuse a CC. If his card or account was stolen..you might not get paid, because of the dispute. If he had a new number, it shouldn't be a problem to add the new number to Paypal. It only takes a couple minutes.
I've had an account number stolen. They reissue a new card, with a new number in under a week UNLESS they suspect him of the fraud. [my wife used to work for amex and knows the biz inside and out.]

2nd thing. It's only been a day since he said he'd 'try to get the mone for a MO'..TRY. Yes it sounds like he wants them, but his wants exceeds his means. I'd give him a deadline, yes, he has problems, but, you said you wanted to sell to move. If he can't come up with the $, then sorry, you waited long enough.

3rd. WTF ironhide? You sound like you're jumping on the OP and defending the buyer.
You might not agree with him, but dude, it sounds like you attacking the OP.
It might not be your intent, but that's how I read it.
Yes the buyer's last reply was yesterday. But the seller, has been patient. Maybe not cause for a backout yet..since the buyer says he's trying to come up with the $.

[Ironhide]

Did you not read my post in it's entirety; I said, "Some people don't even reply to PMs until they have something to report." You must have missed that. In your perspective you are right on the matter, others would disagree.

Just because you were trying to be a "good trader", doesn't mean you have to honor a deal when it starts to go sour. Once problems start occurring, it's a good idea to tell the trader that if they can't complete this in a timely manner, then you will be moving on to the next person in line. That is not a backout. Especially since you stated up front that you wanted to move your items quickly. Shite happens. When a person starts having financial problems, and you are not out anything but a few days, it's time to cut bait and move on to the next catch. I'm sure if you contact some of those people who showed interest, you will be able to find a new buyer.

@kturock: I can see how it looks like I am jumping on the OP and defending the buyer, but some experienced traders would have realized by the 2nd or 3rd delay; that it was time to move on. Especially, when you need to get rid of things quickly. It also upsets me when someone posts a backout not a day after their last contact with the other trader, and doesn't at least give them the courtesy to tell them that they are going to do so.

[joko12]

Ironhide you still have not read my post

I did warn him that I was going to post this today if he didn't get back to me and he hasn't. He has logged in read my msg and ignored it.

Read the whole thing. And you say an expearanced trader would have realized after a few days to cgive him a dead line but in your first post your saying give hime more time and its been almost a month. Sounds like your contradicting yourself.

[Ironhide]

Ironhide you still have not read my post

I did warn him that I was going to post this today if he didn't get back to me and he hasn't. He has logged in read my msg and ignored it.

Read the whole thing. And you say an expearanced trader would have realized after a few days to cgive him a dead line but in your first post your saying give hime more time and its been almost a month. Sounds like your contradicting yourself.

I have read your post. You said you sent him a message last night, but did not include that message in your list of PMs. In fact by leaving that related message out, you have failed to post ALL trade related PMs regarding the deal.

I am not contradicting myself. If you wanted to sell the models quickly, but your trade partner was experiencing problems; you should have decided then whether or not to proceed with the trade. Since you decided to continue in light of his financial troubles, then it is my opinion that you need to either a) set a time frame, b) give him time, or c) tell him you are going with another buyer.

[joko12]

Whatever man its obvious you are the god of trading and im so wrong its not even funny.

This post is a warning to everyone that wants to trade with birchm

Not a dumb argument with you.

Thanks for your input.

Done.

[HarlequinZero]

This thread is locked pending review. It went downhill so fast it's like someone greased the runners.

If you have something TOPICAL to add please send me a PM with the relevant info and I will deal with it.

-HZ, Bartertown Watch

[HarlequinZero]

Topic unlocked so Birchm can post his side of the story. At this point the only people who should be posting here are Birchm, joko12, admins and myself. If you are NOT one of the above listed people and you have something to add you MUST PM it to me FIRST.

-HZ, Bartertown Watch

[Birchm]

Here is my understanding of the issue. I entered into a deal with Joko12, and after finding out about a financial issue I quickly informed him of it. I also informed him that I would be perfectly happy to send a MO. He never provided me with an address, I took this to mean he was alright with waiting for me to work out the issue on my end.

On Tuesday the 14th he informed me that I have not sent out a MO, and if I do not want to send one out he will post a backout complaint. I responded saying that he never provided me with an address, I also pointed out that at this point, about three weeks after the deal began, it would be difficult to send out a MO, after receiving his address I replied on the 15th that I would see what I can do.

I then find out by the 17th that this thread was started and it was already locked.

He accuses me of taking time to respond to him, and of generally being uncommunicative. It is clear from the time stamps that I responded to any PM he sent in between a couple of hours and no longer than one day. I do not think this response time is unreasonable, and I do not think many people would disagree.

He is right in saying that I did not provide him with constant updates, I didn't think there was a point to sending out a daily PM saying nothing had been resolved, and thought it sufficient to promptly respond to any queries from him. He is also probably right in saying that there were times when I was online and did not respond to a message from him that very minute, I've checked B-town from work and from my cellphone, sometimes there is not enough time to read a message, respond to one, or even respond to every PM that I received at that time, that being said, a couple of hours to one day is not an unreasonable time to wait for a response.

Joko12 finally points out that he told me that I could send him a MO, and that I did not reply to such a message. He also claims that he sent me a message prior to posting the backout complaint that I did not reply to. Both are patently untrue. The last correspondence between us was from me to him, not the other way around.

In talking to HarelquinZero, it was suggested that a plausible counterargument was that I simply held open the lines of communication in order to have Joko back out of the deal, my response is to say that it's not the case. If I didn't want the models I would have said so a long time ago, I am sorry that this situation has dragged on for so long, I want to thank Joko for having been so patient, and I am sorry that the situation became acrimonious. That being said I do not believe this constitutes a backout.

If an admin requires an explanation as to the financial issue involved one will be provided via PM.

[joko12]

So it seems my msg that I thought I sent before I posted the backout/deadbeat never did get sent!

I checked my sent msgs and it was not in there. Or in my outbox which is really dumb. I have had it happen before because I don't have internet at my new apartment because I recently moved and I use my phone to send msgs. Sometimes when the service is bad "in the metro area which is where I do most of my phone sending on my commute", my phone will drop what ever I was doing generally due to tunnels, etc. I still don't understand why it would not have sent it but really I think its a mute point. The msg did not get sent So that is my mistake and I am sorry about that. I did warn him that I was going to post this if he did not respond, and I was tired of him playing ring around the rosie with me. It still took him another two days to even notice that I had posted this which means he had no intention of contacting me about sending a money order anytime soon.

Regardless of what msg was sent last here are the facts of the transaction.

One of the first things I posted was,

"If he still wants to buy it then I will delete this post but it looks like its not happening and I am going to have to try and re-sell it."

Why was that never addressed? Because you don't want to buy it. It seems really obvious that you are continually coming up with excuses for why you can't.

"Hey man, sorry, I never got your address as to the MO, or at least I don't see it looking back on our conversation. Either way, at this point Money Order is tricky because I've had to basically pay all my other expenses with cash."

That is a bunch of crap. A money order is not tricky you can pay in cash. If you have the money you go get it and do the money order.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-money-order.htm heres a website talking about all the easy ways to make a money order. So there are no excuses why a money order did not happen.

Yes I said I could wait a little while if the credit card problem was to be fixed, but you never said anything like

"Well whats your address so I can send you the money order if it takes to long" Or anything along the lines of ever asking for an address. It was your idea to send the money order but you said the credit card problem would not take long. And once again a money order is never tricky, I don't care if your having credit card problems that has no affect on a money order!!!

Here are some more crap statements.

"He accuses me of taking time to respond to him, and of generally being uncommunicative. It is clear from the time stamps that I responded to any PM he sent in between a couple of hours and no longer than one day. I do not think this response time is unreasonable, and I do not think many people would disagree."

So your telling me that from Aug 26th-Aug29th, Sept 1st-Sept 6th, and from Sept 7th-11th is only a couple hours and no longer than one day!!! Umm sorry that is totally wrong look at the time stamps..

And I had to contact you first, you did not contact me in any of those cases. I had to ask yo what you were doing? Granted I didn't expect you to get on every day and tell me what was happening but after the deal started around Aug26th and you said that it wouldn't take long to get the credit card problem fixed I expected it not to take long. Then after the money order ordeal you would think you would have responded at some point

And said, "that it looks like I need to send a money order because the credit card is not working right!"

Now onto another crap statement where I so called did not say I would take a money order!!! This is actually making me laugh that your not reading the posts.

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:22 am
by joko12

ok sounds great!!!

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:26 pm
by Birchm

You take it to the post office, and they give you cash for the value of the MO. Let me call my credit card company to see if the issue was resolved, cause a Money Order will take at least 3 days to get to you, and I'd like to avoid that if possible.

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:17 am
by joko12

Whatever works for you, I have never gotten a money order before. Do I take it to the post office and they give me the money or do I take it to the bank?

Either one works for me though, whichever you prefer.

Josh

Re: H: Empire, Wood Elves, W: Cash, Bits
Sent: Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:56 am
by Birchm

Hey, thought I'd give you a quick heads up, I am having issues with paypal, would you want a MO, or to wait for me to get it worked out. Let me know, thanks.

Wow looks like I definitely said that a MO would work, but you so were supposed to call the credit card company and get back to me which you did not do. Or if you did you never told me about it, because you never suggested doing the money order again.

The whole reason you did not want to do the money order is because it was going to take at least three days to send, but instead lets wait and drag out a credit card problem for three weeks instead. Not sure if that really makes any sense at all.

The only reason I did not say no send me the money order is because of your suggestion to save time by doing it through paypal.


I think it is very obvious from what I just said above that it is a backout/deadbeat deal!!!

I don't see how it isn't.

You sat there and said I did not want a money order when that is not true.

You also said that your responded no later then a day, when there are caps of three days or more on there.

Finally the whole MO problem. if you have the money in your bank you get cash from that bank and go make a money order. Its that simple. Yes everyone has bills but if you could not afford to pay for them, don't drag out a deal until you get some money to pay for them. Say you can't pay for them. I understand your in school, a lot of us have been there. I too had to pay for my school supplies in cash. Because I don't own a credit card. Dealing with cash is not that hard.

I am sorry this has drug on too. I am sorry that I had to take time out of my actual work day, and other peoples work days to resolve this issue.

So sorry admins that have been spending time on this, I know you have more important things to be doing then discussing who backed out of what not nonesense.