Myself :(

[Asif Chaudhry]

Eric - Come on man, switching around a discussion about a 1 time offender (okay, 2 times, but they happened at the same time, not sequentially) to one about a scammer engaging in multiple deceptions is totally an "apples to oranges" tactic.

You and I essentially agree - you've totally missed the line in my first post where I said "a reasonable expectation of a deal being struck has occurred."

You wanted to clarify to the others that "Is that cool with you?" is a legally accepted method of confirming a trade is "on", whereas I stated that I consider trades to be "on" when addresses and/or timetables for shipment are agreed on.

You and I agree on the broad strokes, we just differ in the minor details (and I suspect we don't really differ that much, you just have to argue the legal technical line because, well, that's your Btown job description. ).

Keep in mind that - in this instance- this discussion is moot, as the OP is reporting on himself and believes he earned it.

I suppose by the TECHNICAL definition, you are correct Eric. But as you and I BOTH agree, leaving a negative for a backout is something that YOU would (rarely) ever do, and which I would NEVER do. It is (in my book) simply inappropriate.

Saying you would never do it is, actually, doind the rest of the members here a disservice.
I will use the always popular "TraderX" for my example. My apologies to anyone whose User ID might resemble this.

[snip description of textbook scammer behavior]

His behavior is TEXTBOOK scammer. IMO, it's your duty to warn the site about this guy and his tactics. Thus, a negative reference is earned here.

That is why "never" leaving neg's for a backout is a bad idea.

See - I guess I just have a different feeling about this. If you and Jim and Lin will recall, some time back, I actually out-ed a scammer going by the tag "Dead Memories". He was some dude somewhere in England that kept posting the same list of stuff over and over again, to multiple sites (like Dakka swap shop, Rogue Market, etc) and making deals with multiple people, often for over lapping items.

I had made a deal with him for some stuff, had him string me along, and noticed that he never updated his listings to reflect the items he had agreed to send me being "sold" or "gone". When asked/confronted about it, he claimed that his listings were "incomplete" and he actually had multiples of all the items he listed, he just couldn't be bothered to make a comprehensive list of his stuff.

So I left LOTS of posts on the various forums. But I never once gave him a bad ref - because no transaction ever happened. Should I have done so? Perhaps, but there was never any proof positive of malfeasance on his part, so it's POSSIBLE (although improbable) that it was all just a HUGE misunderstanding.

Suffice to say - in your example, if I was incautious enough to not check out TraderX on the BTR/Deadbeats forums, I probably would not have posted a negative, just posted a topic to the backouts forum, and left a PM stream.

I guess - I take the reference system VERY seriously. It's like "street cred", your own personal reputation, and as was pointed out in the first few replies to the posting rules for the backout forum, it seems like a person should be VERY hesitant to "slander" someone else without being sure they are 100% in the right. Because Accusation can be king, and sometimes people are considered "guilty" and forced to prove their innocence when left with a neg ref score, which isn't right OR fair.

Speaking of which..........

And quite frankly, without Kelanen posting a complete PM history, where he shows that a deal was struck AND Walls took an "unreasonable" amount of time to let him know about his changed financial status (per the following, which is the last sentence of your "is it cool?" paragraph):

Posting the PM history is not a requirement for leaving a negative reference. Never was.

Au contraire sir - as YOU pointed out yourself, in post #13 of the rules for posting on the backouts/deadbeats forum (posted Apr 14, 2008). And I quote you:

Actually, you missed the boat on this one. JLong05 had it right.

This forum is for one thing.

You make a deal with a trader, the trader CONFIRMS (by deed or word) that the trade is final, then backs out.

IF you choose to leave a negative reference for that, you post your thread about it here (with all the proof requirements as per Bad Trader rules).

Hmmm....seems to me that you are hoisted upon your own petard sir. Kelanen is in CLEAR violation of the rules of this forum, having left a Neg ref for someone and NOT posting all the proof requirements as stated in this forum. As our old friend IronHide would say "Kelanen has 24 hrs to post the relevant proof, or have his Neg reversed, and his post nuked."

Now, as you said before, this is ALL moot, since Walls himself outed his own "bad" behaviour (oh no! He got engaged! And has a new home! The horror! That rat bastard!). However, I STILL have a massive issue with someone leaving a Negative for a guy, who is brand new, clearly intended to honor his word, and THEN had life get in the way.

The BTR forum is by choice and not a requirement. It should be reserved for those with questionable trading practices. most specifically, HONESTY problems (if you KWIM).

Not to be overly argumentative, but TECHNICALLY everything on this site is by choice - it isn't the Army. HOWEVER, if one were to follow the Bartertown Forum rules, you know the ones that Lin says "Read Them. Learn Them. And for goodness sake, FOLLOW THEM.", then one would note:

Rule #6: Please make sure to read the Good & Bad Trader Forum. viewforum.php?f=48 .It is YOUR responsibility to make sure that the person you're dealing with is legitimate. Threatening us with legal action won't get you anywhere.
When posting to the Bad Trader or Deadbeats & Backouts forums, please read and follow the rules posted at the top of each forum.

Now granted, Rule #6 says NOTHING about posting to the forum, just that you should read it before making deals with someone. However, I would say that it is implicit in the very existence of the forum, that people who use Bartertown SHOULD post to the forum when they have an issue come up with another trader, so that the ENTIRE community can learn about and avoid running into the troublemaker, as you yourself noted to me in your "TraderX - it's your duty to post the neg" argument. People should ALSO have the duty of posting to the BTR/Backouts&Deadbeats forums when they run into problematic traders, to make the site a safer place for EVERYONE.

By the way Eric? That would be your Petard calling again, on line 2.

So, MY question - What is a "reasonable" amount of time of having to backout due to a legitimate emergency or change in financial status? That is never defined, Lin leaves it as "an exercise for the readers."

Everything is a gray area. Whit might be acceptable to one trader may not be acceptable to another.
It is up to the trade partners to work that out. If there is a problem with it, that's why we have staff.

If someone posts a BTR or backout that the reported individual disagrees with, all he has to do is contact ANY staff meember. We'll discuss it and make a decision on whether we -officially- think it's acceptable.

Hope that clarifies.
Eric

Fair enough - it's good to know that there ARE staff to speak with when disagreements occur over what the word "reasonable" should mean.

Cheers!
-Asif

[Ironhide]

All I will say pertaining to this, is that regardless whether or not the OP is reporting himself, his post in this forum should follow the rules for this forum. Ergo, the PM string showing proof MUST be posted. Not by kelanen, but by the OP.

[Asif Chaudhry]

All I will say pertaining to this, is that regardless whether or not the OP is reporting himself, his post in this forum should follow the rules for this forum. Ergo, the PM string showing proof MUST be posted. Not by kelanen, but by the OP.

ROTFLOL...... Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any more absurd. "Sir, I wish to fall upon my sword and let the world know that I was a bad person." "Well, that's all fine and dandy, but where's the proof young man? I don't care how many people agree you are bad, I need proof!"

I cry "uncle!" and give up.

Cheers!
-Asif

[Asif Chaudhry]

All I will say pertaining to this, is that regardless whether or not the OP is reporting himself, his post in this forum should follow the rules for this forum. Ergo, the PM string showing proof MUST be posted. Not by kelanen, but by the OP.

ROTFLOL...... Just when I thought this thread couldn't get any more absurd. "Sir, I wish to fall upon my sword and let the world know that I was a bad person." "Well, that's all fine and dandy, but where's the proof young man? I don't care how many people agree you are bad, I need proof!"

I cry "uncle!" and give up.

Cheers!
-Asif

And just on a side note Ironhide, the requirement for posting proof, according to MM and the rules, is for when a Neg ref is left. Walls only left Positive refs for Kelanen and Don Mondo. It was Kelanen that posted the neg ref, and as such (according to MM), it is Kelanen that must supply a PM stream to justify his Neg ref.

Just an FYI,
-Asif

[MagickalMemories]

Eric - Come on man, switching around a discussion about a 1 time offender (okay, 2 times, but they happened at the same time, not sequentially) to one about a scammer engaging in multiple deceptions is totally an "apples to oranges" tactic.

There was n switching around intended. I was merely trying to show an example of why it could be appropriate to leave a negative reference for a backout and why -in my UNOFFICIAL opinion- it is our duty to do so under certain circumstances to protect other traders.

It was not meant as a direct comment on this individual, but as a comment on your statement that you'd NEVER leave a negative ref.
It's your right not to, of course, and I don't hold it against you. That would be silly of me.
I'm just showing why I think you'd be in the wrong to *never* leave it.

You and I agree on the broad strokes, we just differ in the minor details (and I suspect we don't really differ that much, you just have to argue the legal technical line because, well, that's your Btown job description. ).

Agreed that we agree. The "technical line" in this, though, does happen to coincide with my opinion, though.

Suffice to say - in your example, if I was incautious enough to not check out TraderX on the BTR/Deadbeats forums, I probably would not have posted a negative, just posted a topic to the backouts forum, and left a PM stream.

If you were the victim in my example, you'd be "out" something, In this case, money.
We wouldn't REQUIRE you to leave a neg ref, but we would definitely move your topic. If you are out something, it's no longer a backout. It's a Bad trade.
Unless you meant that you were the guy he agreed to a trade with and agreed to send first, but never did... in that case, a backout post would be appropriate (with the notation to keep my previous comments in mind regarding references).

And quite frankly, without Kelanen posting a complete PM history, where he shows that a deal was struck AND Walls took an "unreasonable" amount of time to let him know about his changed financial status (per the following, which is the last sentence of your "is it cool?" paragraph):

Posting the PM history is not a requirement for leaving a negative reference. Never was.

Au contraire sir - as YOU pointed out yourself, in post #13 of the rules for posting on the backouts/deadbeats forum (posted Apr 14, 2008). And I quote you:

Actually, you missed the boat on this one. JLong05 had it right.

This forum is for one thing.

You make a deal with a trader, the trader CONFIRMS (by deed or word) that the trade is final, then backs out.

IF you choose to leave a negative reference for that, you post your thread about it here (with all the proof requirements as per Bad Trader rules).

Hmmm....seems to me that you are hoisted upon your own petard sir. Kelanen is in CLEAR violation of the rules of this forum, having left a Neg ref for someone and NOT posting all the proof requirements as stated in this forum. As our old friend IronHide would say "Kelanen has 24 hrs to post the relevant proof, or have his Neg reversed, and his post nuked."

Okay. Wow, man.
You went back two years for that comment?

::researches thread::

Looks like you took my comment out of context.
Doesn't appear to be intentional. it just looks like it wasn't taken into context with everything I said in there:

This forum is for one thing.

You make a deal with a trader, the trader CONFIRMS (by deed or word) that the trade is final, then backs out.

IF you choose to leave a negative reference for that, you post your thread about it here (with all the proof requirements as per Bad Trader rules).

That last sentence was meant as a "can post your thread here," not a "must post your thread here..."
Taken by itself, I can't fault you for not seeing that.
Let's look farther into the thread, though (from page 2):

The purpose is to have a place to post your proof to support why you left the guy a negative reference... unless I've missed the mark.

Two important things here.
1) I still never qualified it as a requirement.
2) The emboldened part is important because 2 years ago, I was a Watchman. It was not my job to create or interpret site rules. That's only important to note so that we realize, in discussing those posts, that I was not in a position then to create, change or influence (very much) site rules any more than anyone else. My job was to police the forums.

There was talk in the BTR forum about how the "backout" posts were taking over and how, though it was a bad trade practice, it wasn't the kind of thing that put them in the same boat as the Ticknors and Drop Zones of the trading world. this forum was created so that, if you leave someone a neg ref for backing out of an agreed upon trade, you can post the PM/email string here so that the people are not stuck in the Bad Trader forum with the REAL bad guys.

You're right. Most traders aren't going to hold it against someoe if they have a thread here about them... but if they hit 2 or 3, people will wonder.


As you know, it's a known tactic of scammers to try to get people to simu-ship or ship first (for whatever reason they can come up with). If they agree to a deal, but can't get the other trader to do that, they "change their mind."

Excessive "mind changing" is a definite warning flag.

We've seen it in the past (those BTR threads are lost, though) that a few traders have had a BTR on them, only for other traders to later pop in the thread about how they were going to deal with the guy until he refused to ship first & wanted a simu-ship.

Only posted to show that, even back then, I was in favor of reporting and "neg reffing" backouts under "shady' circumstances.


From page 4:

The rules are set forth in the trading guidelines. If you agree to a trade, then back out (for any reason), you are subject to a Neg Ref. Posting here is in support of the Neg Ref you left. You have to have proof, as per the BTR forum.
There is the additional caveat, implied, though not stated, that you should use good judgement on what your criteria are for leaving a neg ref for a backout, as YOU may be the one judged.

Looking at this statement, I can see why you might see it as "only" in support of neg ref's.
That never was the case, however. The biggest support I can find for that is Lin's first post, there he gave a link to the rules for posting in this forum, which are the same as in the BTR forum:
viewtopic.php?t=45472
Nowhere does it say that having left a negative reference is a requirement.

Now, as you said before, this is ALL moot, since Walls himself outed his own "bad" behaviour (oh no! He got engaged! And has a new home! The horror! That rat bastard!). However, I STILL have a massive issue with someone leaving a Negative for a guy, who is brand new, clearly intended to honor his word, and THEN had life get in the way.

I hope you weren't expecting me to argue that point. : )

Not to be overly argumentative, but TECHNICALLY everything on this site is by choice

Okay. That is a bit of a stretch.
You're right, of course. Logic dictates, however, that we discuss this along the same lines as we would if one of use said, "I need XYZ model for my army." Need is relative.

HOWEVER, if one were to follow the Bartertown Forum rules, you know the ones that Lin says "Read Them. Learn Them. And for goodness sake, FOLLOW THEM.", then one would note:

Rule #6: Please make sure to read the Good & Bad Trader Forum. viewforum.php?f=48 .It is YOUR responsibility to make sure that the person you're dealing with is legitimate. Threatening us with legal action won't get you anywhere.
When posting to the Bad Trader or Deadbeats & Backouts forums, please read and follow the rules posted at the top of each forum.

Now granted, Rule #6 says NOTHING about posting to the forum, just that you should read it before making deals with someone. However, I would say that it is implicit in the very existence of the forum, that people who use Bartertown SHOULD post to the forum when they have an issue come up with another trader, so that the ENTIRE community can learn about and avoid running into the troublemaker, as you yourself noted to me in your "TraderX - it's your duty to post the neg" argument. People should ALSO have the duty of posting to the BTR/Backouts&Deadbeats forums when they run into problematic traders, to make the site a safer place for EVERYONE.

Provided that, by "problematic traders," you are referring specifically to those who qualify as "Bad Traders" or those who backout without fair reason (per my above quoted example), I agree.
If, on the other hand, you're referring to people who are rude, low-ballers, etc., but don't violate any site rules, I disagree.

By the way Eric? That would be your Petard calling again, on line 2.

Two attempts. Two misses. No petard. No hoisting.

So, MY question - What is a "reasonable" amount of time of having to backout due to a legitimate emergency or change in financial status? That is never defined, Lin leaves it as "an exercise for the readers."

Everything is a gray area. Whit might be acceptable to one trader may not be acceptable to another.
It is up to the trade partners to work that out. If there is a problem with it, that's why we have staff.

If someone posts a BTR or backout that the reported individual disagrees with, all he has to do is contact ANY staff meember. We'll discuss it and make a decision on whether we -officially- think it's acceptable.

Hope that clarifies.
Eric

Fair enough - it's good to know that there ARE staff to speak with when disagreements occur over what the word "reasonable" should mean.

Cheers!
-Asif

Any time you EVER have a problem with ANYTHING on the site, you can always come to us. All staff is here to help with problems.
Have a problem with a Watchman? Take it to a Mod or Admin.
Problem with a Mod? Bring it to an Admin.
Problem with an Admin? Bring it to a different Admin. For those who think that you can't get a problem with ANY staff member resolved fairly, I only have my word on this but I can promise you that ALL staff complaints are given FAIR attention. Staff status, regardless of title, is not any sort of "get out of jail free" card to break ANY rules on the site.

If you think that isn't true, you don't know the Admins that well (LOL, especially Lin... the man's an absolute hard *ss.)


Eric

[Ironhide]

Rules for this forum are the same as the BTR forum.
viewtopic.php?t=45472

While it is a bit asinine to require someone to show proof of their bad behavior when they are blatantly admitting to it, it is still the rule. Even when someone confesses to a murder, evidence is still required.

There is no requirement to post a BTR along with a negative ref.

[blackspade]

Rules for this forum are the same as the BTR forum.
viewtopic.php?t=45472

While it is a bit asinine to require someone to show proof of their bad behavior when they are blatantly admitting to it, it is still the rule. Even when someone confesses to a murder, evidence is still required.

There is no requirement to post a BTR along with a negative ref.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that while Walls, should, as you say, post proof of his own backout so should Kelanen based on his response post.

Backed out of a $200 sale, but at least was honest and came clean about it, after it was obvious.

He's an honest guy, and good to work with - I would still trade with him, albeit with a little caution. Real Life just got in the way...

He made an accusation in the backout thread that is unsubstantiated and should provide proof himself.
I just think it is unfortuante that Walls was hammered so hard for a backout, which appears to be within reason (family matters, etc).
I think that all of us trading on the site should be flexible enough that there is no need to be vindictive about it beyond posting a backout thread.

[MagickalMemories]

I guess the point I was trying to make is that while Walls, should, as you say, post proof of his own backout so should Kelanen based on his response post.

Backed out of a $200 sale, but at least was honest and came clean about it, after it was obvious.

He's an honest guy, and good to work with - I would still trade with him, albeit with a little caution. Real Life just got in the way...

He made an accusation in the backout thread that is unsubstantiated and should provide proof himself.
I just think it is unfortuante that Walls was hammered so hard for a backout, which appears to be within reason (family matters, etc).
I think that all of us trading on the site should be flexible enough that there is no need to be vindictive about it beyond posting a backout thread.

Nah. That would be a lesson in futility. He could, just as easily, post a link to the OP's references, where he says the same thing. No PM string is required for references.
Besides... this thread doesn't even belong on here. I've only left it going out of respect for those who have taken an interest in the ongoing discussion. Once the discussion fades out, I'll be moving the thread out of sight.

Eric

[Walls]

Yikes. I didn't mean to cause such a fuss.

[Asif Chaudhry]

Yikes. I didn't mean to cause such a fuss.

Nah, no fuss. This was probably a good discussion to have, and if it has the staff debate the merits of Neg refs for backouts even a little bit, especially for special/weird cases such as when the poster puts in his ref "He's a good guy, I'd trade with him in the future! But I'm giving him -10 anyways!", then so much the better.

And by the way Eric, for all those times where you said "If you mean (a), then I agree with you, but if you mean (b) then we disagree", you can assume (a), i.e. we agreed on things. I'm just pretty done with this thread and already cried "uncle!" when Ironhide posted his little $0.02 bits.

Just out of curiousity, WHERE is this thread going to go "out of sight"? Personally I feel it's a valuable case study that more Btowners could benefit from looking at, if for no other reason than stimulating them to re-read the Bartertown rules for the forums and posting to the BTR/D&B.

Cheers!
-Asif

[Ironhide]

Just out of curiousity, WHERE is this thread going to go "out of sight"? Personally I feel it's a valuable case study that more Btowners could benefit from looking at, if for no other reason than stimulating them to re-read the Bartertown rules for the forums and posting to the BTR/D&B.

I concur. We should have some kinda after action report (AAR) thread for these types of lessons learned.

[MagickalMemories]

Just out of curiousity, WHERE is this thread going to go "out of sight"? Personally I feel it's a valuable case study that more Btowners could benefit from looking at, if for no other reason than stimulating them to re-read the Bartertown rules for the forums and posting to the BTR/D&B.

Cheers!
-Asif

We have forums that are only available to staff. It'll be moved there (barring rare circumstance, we don't delete anything [on purpose]).
Honestly, the thread might be worth something for informative purposes, but there's too much in here that is negative for the OP. We can't go through and edit it all out because (1) not our style to edit large swaths of posts (2) too much work [I'm not willing to try to do it & I won't ask any other staff member to do anything I'm not willing to do] (3) All the bad stuff about the OP CAN'T be edited out, since much if it is simply tied to his user ID.

Staff will keep it around, though, in case we can ever glean anything from it.

Eric

[MagickalMemories]

Just out of curiousity, WHERE is this thread going to go "out of sight"? Personally I feel it's a valuable case study that more Btowners could benefit from looking at, if for no other reason than stimulating them to re-read the Bartertown rules for the forums and posting to the BTR/D&B.

I concur. We should have some kinda after action report (AAR) thread for these types of lessons learned.

You volunteering?

Eric

[Ironhide]

Actually I was thinking of a sub-forum where this kinda thing could go, but no one would be allowed to post in them. Call it, "WTF" or something!

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

Why are we taking this down?

The OPs intent seemed to be to establish a BO thread about a BO. Now, the BO was himself, but is that a reason to strip it out?