Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

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spiralingcadaver ( 456 )
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by spiralingcadaver »

Thank you for the enlightening reply of
"So what!"
, which is both grammatically correct and polite :/.

The reference to AT-43, which I haven't played, was actually more enlightening than most of what else you've said, which is largely comparisons, rather than information.

I'm not actually sure what you're saying in your following paragraph.

Your army list
1) is, in my opinion, one that I can't actually see being very useful with any caster*, so I'm not sure what point you're making here
2) is not exactly the same as saying that you only need to swap one model (swapping parts means a fair amount of extra work)
3) includes a proxy, in which case, I could argue that you can cut out a bunch of circles and write names on them, and all you need for any game or army would be the rules, paper, scissors, and a way of tracking effects and damage, so you don't need to spend any money.

requisite numbers of players to make a game fun is subjective, I guess.

*to elaborate:
Stryker, Siege and both Caines would be focus-starved
The Haleys, and Sloan would probably run it okay, though it would be a one-trick poney and not optimal. In the case of the Haleys, that's mostly because they're(she's?) strong caster(s).
Kraye, the Nemos and Darius probably wouldn't have enough jacks to run effective lists, and more importantly don't help the expensive infantry well (1/3 of your army is stuff that doesn't work with them)
eStryker and Constance wouldn't have much to do without melee infantry

I think that's all of them?
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divine shadow ( 182 )
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by divine shadow »

Is the proxy the Hammersmith? The jack with two hammers that is the only one like it in the game? Yeah, it really confuses people*.

Magnetizing arms isn't much more work than pinning a model unless you're doing it some weird way.

The list is just fine with Caine, Styker and Siege as you can get relatively easy assassinations. I don't need to tell you how to play as there's Battle College and other message boards. It's not optimal, but it's an example of just switching casters to change up the army. If you want 'optimal' then go make theme lists or spam units or whatever the kids are saying is 'optimal' these days and win your silly argument.

*to elaborate
Sarcasm

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spiralingcadaver ( 456 )
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by spiralingcadaver »

Image
True, we love life, not because we are used to living but because we are used to loving. There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.
-Nietzsche

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MagickalMemories ( 832 )
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by MagickalMemories »

I'm not one for throwing games. So, "accidentally" getting someone killed doesn't resonate with me.
Like you, my ego isn't tied to my win-loss ratio. If I'm getting slaughtered, though, I've got a better way to move on to another game.

"You know. I can tell right now that there's no way I can pull this out. Personally, I'd rather just conceded the loss and get another game in. Is that okay with you."
Nobody in my group would refuse that and ,if I was playing someone OUTSIDE my group, I'd just concede anyway and play someone else if he refused.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by spiralingcadaver »

MagickalMemories wrote:I'm not one for throwing games. So, "accidentally" getting someone killed doesn't resonate with me.
Like you, my ego isn't tied to my win-loss ratio. If I'm getting slaughtered, though, I've got a better way to move on to another game.

"You know. I can tell right now that there's no way I can pull this out. Personally, I'd rather just conceded the loss and get another group in. Is that okay with you."
Nobody in my game would refuse that and ,if I was playing someone OUTSIDE my group, I'd just concede anyway and play someone else if he refused.
Yeah, as long as you do it politely (i.e. not ragequit), I don't think there's anyone who would hold conceding against you.
True, we love life, not because we are used to living but because we are used to loving. There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.
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I expect honesty about models' conditions, thank you.

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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by Mattman154 »

spiralingcadaver wrote: Mostly, until people start breaking the game (for instance, if you're not looking at a shield guarding model, but are looking at the model it guards out of the corner of your eye, you can target the defender without the bodyguard stepping in. Or the fact that good scouts (read: hunter) shoot through walls (ignore trenches, walls, etc.).
The great thing about PP and their rules follies, is that they have a place set up where people can get official answers in a matter of hours. No company that I'm aware of has an official forum with official voices dedicated to solving any rules questions. With the Shield Guard, that is a perfect example of a rule slipping through the cracks, I do challenge you to find another one though that doesn't get resolved by an Infernal (Privateer Press' official voice when it comes to rules decisions). The ability Hunter is something not found on a lot of models, and when it is you can bet the unit that has it paid for it with the higher point cost.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by spiralingcadaver »

Umm, how about character models? According to the current rules, Croe (of croe's cutthroats) technically is not a character, because he isn't named, meaning the character unit consists entirely of non-character models.

The hunter rule isn't an issue with the rules, but how the rules don't reflect a reasonable situation: knowing someone's hiding on the other side of the wall does not mean they're as easy to hit as if you had clear sight to them.

Another fun one is that Triumph was made a Defender to receive bonuses in Siege's theme list, however, this made it available in Magnus' theme list. Their solution was to make it not a defender, rather than to not allow character defenders in Magnus' list. Another rules issue that they solved, but in an illogical way.

PP has a great set of rules (it's the best thing about their company, in my opinion, other than maybe their good customer service), but they still have problems (which isn't always failing to resolve the, but resolving them in an illogical way. For instance, the shield guard rule could have easily been written without the loophole by requiring the attacker to be in LOS of the shield guardian, rather than the reverse. They also still have issues with making a balanced tournament rule set, after a decade of trying.
True, we love life, not because we are used to living but because we are used to loving. There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.
-Nietzsche

I expect honesty about models' conditions, thank you.

If I don't respond in a day or two, please check back, I've forgotten-sorry.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by alienated_one »

spiralingcadaver wrote:Umm, how about character models? According to the current rules, Croe (of croe's cutthroats) technically is not a character, because he isn't named, meaning the character unit consists entirely of non-character models.
Croe isnt an officer on purpose. If you read the fluff, he hires a bunch of people who look like him, and when people attack him, they "magically" hit someone who falls in the way or whatnot. This is not a rule that fell through the cracks. Its specifically there so that Croe is the last person in the unit to die every time.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by spiralingcadaver »

I didn't say he wasn't an officer, I said he isn't a character. Also, he doesn't hire people who look like him explicitly, but that's besides the point.

He used to have a rule that essentially worked like current leaders do (back when leaders were more like officers) and was a character. PP realized that they could take out those rules in the current edition, which wasn't a problem, until they ruled that characters needed to have specific names in their entries (like Boomhowler (character model) and his grunts (non-character model)). This means that, Croe's Cutthroats (character unit) consists of Leader and Grunts (non-character models).

If you want to argue that a ruling, that took a long time to be announced and had a single corner-case situation where it didn't fit, was in fact how they always intended it, more power to you. PP makes a very good set of rules, but it would hardly be the first time they'd made an oversight.
True, we love life, not because we are used to living but because we are used to loving. There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.
-Nietzsche

I expect honesty about models' conditions, thank you.

If I don't respond in a day or two, please check back, I've forgotten-sorry.
Forsaken Poptart ( 578 )
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by Forsaken Poptart »

spiralingcadaver wrote:I didn't say he wasn't an officer, I said he isn't a character. Also, he doesn't hire people who look like him explicitly, but that's besides the point.

He used to have a rule that essentially worked like current leaders do (back when leaders were more like officers) and was a character. PP realized that they could take out those rules in the current edition, which wasn't a problem, until they ruled that characters needed to have specific names in their entries (like Boomhowler (character model) and his grunts (non-character model)). This means that, Croe's Cutthroats (character unit) consists of Leader and Grunts (non-character models).
I'm not sure what the problem is, as far as rules are concerned, about this. Am I missing something?
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by spiralingcadaver »

Abilities which can't target characters can target him (i.e. most "take control of enemy piece" spells), which is actually decently important, considering he's got a poisoned weapon and a weapon which shuts down magic. Also, it's inconsistent, as he's the one exception in the game, and there isn't a good reason (for instance, you could make the argument that the Covenant of Menoth is unique because of the book, not because the priest or choir holding it are important)
True, we love life, not because we are used to living but because we are used to loving. There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.
-Nietzsche

I expect honesty about models' conditions, thank you.

If I don't respond in a day or two, please check back, I've forgotten-sorry.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by whatsnext »

Hordes is kinda like pokemon. Really if you ever played the gameboy games it's alot alike. Just fast and furious combat, if you unit doesnt have the type it is toast. You do have to plan for what's popular in both games(I guess that is meta). Granted most mini wargames are like this with a slice of random rolls added in.

Maybe I'm more simple about it b/c I have'nt really played more than a couple games of hordes. I have never had the uber competitive nature.

What even made me think this comparison was that alot of the hordes monsters remind me of pokemon.

malifaux is kinda like DDM skirmish.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by flyingwhale »

Maybe it's time to revive this thread....

Price: Hands down Warmachine/Hordes is just cheaper because you need less and their prices don't get hiked as often as gw, especially with these new kits that come out that you can get 3 jacks in one (just magnetize them)... but I guess you can do that in warhammer too.


Players: I really find the players in both gaming systems... it's not the game that makes people ultra competitive it's just people. No matter where you go you will always find jerks and good people. So let's call that one a tie.


I really like warmachine and I was coming off of it from 40k. In warmachine as someone said earlier it's like chess I have many games where I just stand there and I have to think my little head and I find the game has more "suprises". For example this line comes up "your guy does what!?.. ahhh *edit*...I'm dead."

I do not really find the game to be broken. It's just as broken as 40k. Depends who makes the list.

I look at the FEATS in warmachine/hordes this way.... It's like in Dragonballz when the main characters or villains wait for just the right moment to use their super hidden secret power and end it.

Warmachine = Chess
Warhammer = Risk (and the guy who is the jerk on australia is Grey knights)
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by MagickalMemories »

I disagree about Warmachine being cheaper.
I mean, you can get INTO the game for less of an investment, but it's not cheaper on a model by model basis. That's not true at all.

Eric
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by Forsaken Poptart »

You're right- per model, Warmachine is more expensive. Some models only marginally so, but on the other hand- Colossals.
It also depends on your meta- if your local group plays 35 point games exclusively, Warmachine as a whole is cheaper to get into. If they play 50 or 75 point games, though, the difference becomes a lot slimmer pretty quickly.
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