Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

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eman1_2 ( 278 )
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by eman1_2 »

Forsaken Poptart wrote: Also, regarding the 'page 5 mentality'- it does not stipulate anything about crushing new players so badly that they lose all interest, nor does it say that kicking the tar out of somebody less skilled is a desireable trait. If your opponent isn't teaching you anything, just whipping you across the board then hiding behind 'play like you've got a pair', get a new opponent.
I think is part of it. I have not found too many warmahordes player that is willing to teach - just win.

And, people call it warmahordes - like branglina or bennifer - so that right there is a strike against it :)
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Forsaken Poptart ( 578 )
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by Forsaken Poptart »

eman1_2 wrote:
Forsaken Poptart wrote: Also, regarding the 'page 5 mentality'- it does not stipulate anything about crushing new players so badly that they lose all interest, nor does it say that kicking the tar out of somebody less skilled is a desireable trait. If your opponent isn't teaching you anything, just whipping you across the board then hiding behind 'play like you've got a pair', get a new opponent.
I think is part of it. I have not found too many warmahordes player that is willing to teach - just win.

And, people call it warmahordes - like branglina or bennifer - so that right there is a strike against it :)
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by HarlequinZero »

I, too, find that whole page 5 mentality to PP games to be a big turnoff. It seems to me a lot of the people I know who started into PP games did it specifically because they wanted an ultra-competitive tournament scene that GW couldn't/wouldn't provide. Now, I've noticed in recent releases that PP officials have been trying to soften the game's win at all cost attitude, but most players I've seen thumb their noses at this. My main love when it comes to wargaming is making interesting, fluffy armies and then painting them. Playing is somewhat secondary. I just don't think that works in PP's world.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by Forsaken Poptart »

Page 5 is a much more nuanced concept than you get at first glance and takes a lot of personal character to pull off properly- In my personal experience, page 5 is only supposed to be utilized IN the game, WHILE playing the game, and only really in tournament settings. That is to say, if you and I both entered a tourney, I expect you to bring your A Game, and you should expect me to bring mine. I play by the rules, but pull no punches and will give you the best I've got. We should, figuatively speaking, both leave the field bloodied and battered, but one person should be the clear victor. However, once the game is over and no matter who wins, I'm going to offer you a handshake, and I want you to want to reciprocate. I'm not going to pack my crap and stalk away looking for my next victim, I'm going to sit down and chat with you about the game, if you'll have it. My models are playing by Page 5, I'm not.

When I'm playing a casual game (or in a tourney, ask Plarzoid about my Harkevich list!), I have no problem stopping to help you learn. Hell, half the time I learn something myself, or at least I'm reminded of a rule I might have forgotten.
Fluffy, well painted armies totally work in the PP realm, particularly if you like the new theme lists that they're churning out. They're fluffy and still somewhat competitive at the same time.

Really, you guys who are saying the game is too competitive- it's not; it's a few meathead players who ruin it for everybody! Contact your local PG, if you want to get back into it; they should be able to help you learn in a less-ridiculous environment.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by wookieegunner »

Please forgive me as I ignore most of your post and focus pretty much on the last line. You say you want to love the game and you have an army. What do you want to love about the game and what army do you have? Is it the large models laying smack-down? Is it the fact that a shooting army is more viable then in 40K? is it the feat turn? What 40K army do you play and why? Are you playing in a group that just goes for caster kill or do they play scenarios? You mention sticking to 1 caster, do you mean single caster games or do you mean you have only tried a single caster?
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by spiralingcadaver »

As someone who used to be very in to WM/Hordes, trying to express a rare 3rd opinion (neither love nor hate)
Norseman wrote:Okay I don't want to offend anyone or cause a flame war with this, but am I the only one that thinks Warmachine and Hordes is absolutely terrible.

What am I doing wrong. We have played a bunch of different scenarios and points values up to 50 always staying at 1 caster.

My thoughts:
There are no tactics in the game it's all about going balls deep and taking big risks. You win or lose on the dice(luck).
I'd disagree here. Maybe you're not playing with enough terrain, but every game I've played in the last year or so, regardless of occasional freak wins, it's pretty clear who had the stronger game.
Ranges are to close; by the time shooting comes into play you are already at risk for HtH.
Often, yes, but it generally means that you need to play a more cagey game, not a ranged list is a poor choice. Where first strike is everything (well, a lot, anyway), it doesn't matter whether that strike is a gun or a sword.
Rules are very slanted to Hordes. Pile on that rage as there aint going to be a next turn anyways.
I'd agree. Hordes is a better system. People can make arguments against this, but I believe it's solidly the case. That's what happens when you have 5(?) years to figure out an alternate system.
Some of the Feats are just stupid, and ruin the game. (Cryx)
Again, mostly agree. Some should have never survived to 2nd edition. Don't play against a**holes. This clause is important in every system, though more obvious in WM/Hordes.
It doesn't matter if you totally wreck your opponents army if he gets a lucky and kills your warcaster you lose, in EVERY mission.
This is true in any setting (freak rolls change the game), however, I've almost never actually seen it come in to play. If you prepared, you denied them the opportunity to make those good rolls (and Hordes is unfortunately part of the answer to this). Freak low rolls change the game, too, but at least you can prepare for those (redundancy, redundancy,redundancy!).
Are we playing to small of games? I know I really don't enjoy 500point games of 40k. I have been told by a few WM/HRDS players that the bigger games come down to the same thing. Just bigger scale.
Play small games. A lot. Play them until you know your pieces backwards and forwards. Nothing sucks the fun out of a game like taking a long time to lose*. Play 25-35 point games until they go smoothly and entertainingly, or 15 point games until then. Don't have either player take casters who are unbalanced for low point games (eSkarre, eHaley(to a lesser extent), eAsphyxious, etc.). They were never designed for it but PP wanted to sell more minis, so allowed them to be fielded at smaller sizes.

*I call this the Risk Clause, which looks remarkably similar in wording to the Monopoly Clause...
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by Norseman »

From what everyone is saying... I really am not missing anything. I experienced WM/H in it entirety. Unfortunately it is probably not for me. It's broken combos and unbalanced feats are just a part of the game you have to get used to. I really do not have the time or the want to memorize every unit in the game or every combo. I can see this not being a problem , for people that ONLY play WM/H, but for me WM/H would only be a 4th or 5th priority game, not being worth it. I just don't have the time to dedicate to the game.

For a game system that people are saying is ultra competitive and balanced, I just can NOT see it. It's Paper, rock, scissor with some dice for flare. Many say you can tell who the winner of the game is just looking at the lists. It doesn't matter how kick ass your scissor is, or how skilled you are with them you still can't beat rock.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by alienated_one »

Norseman wrote:It doesn't matter how kick ass your scissor is, or how skilled you are with them you still can't beat rock.
I wish this was true. In a game that you put as being "Rock, Paper, Scissors", I must be playing with a trout. :) I've been playing since the original Prime, and I still lose more than I win.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by s_o_r_r_o_w »

Norseman wrote:It's Paper, rock, scissor with some dice for flare. Many say you can tell who the winner of the game is just looking at the lists. It doesn't matter how kick ass your scissor is, or how skilled you are with them you still can't beat rock.
Norse, I just don't buy this.

I 100% agree that there are some lists that other lists can't/won't beat--but that is true in literally every game system ever.

The tremendous variety in synergy created by the substitution of as little as one model means that no list can beat all other lists, and every list can pack in a little surprise of its own.

For me, these games are often decided by very fine maneuver control, feints, and wicked combos, and I do agree that list building is important. But it's not like any list can be dropped on the table and just point and click its way to victory.

I don't play much any more because I am not that into going straight for the throat, but I do think it's a great game--maybe not your game, but great nonetheless.
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spiralingcadaver ( 456 )
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by spiralingcadaver »

Norseman wrote:I really do not have the time or the want to memorize every unit in the game or every combo. I can see this not being a problem , for people that ONLY play WM/H, but for me WM/H would only be a 4th or 5th priority game, not being worth it. I just don't have the time to dedicate to the game.
Totally. I got in on the ground floor, and have no idea how one would start now-- get the rules, pick an army you like, buy their army book then...? Hmm, muddle around 'til you have a theme list you like and gamble it won't end you up with $200 of minis that aren't worth it in or out of theme? Research thoroughly? Use forum logic?
For a game system that people are saying is ultra competitive and balanced, I just can NOT see it. It's Paper, rock, scissor with some dice for flare. Many say you can tell who the winner of the game is just looking at the lists. It doesn't matter how kick ass your scissor is, or how skilled you are with them you still can't beat rock.
This is something I wouldn't agree with: as a pretty straightforward example, I play a list with a lot of shooting and no reliable stealth negation. I fight against a mostly stealth army. I know it'll be an uphill battle, but I've definitely won, because I have experience with my list, and know what will be most useful, and will probably see some things just played as speed bumps.

Now, I'm in a situation where I'm good enough to win most of my casual games, but hate a tourney scene, so can't say as much for either extreme: probably, if both players are equally matched, then short of brilliant tactics or crazy dice rolls, the player with the better list will be more likely to win, but I don't really see anything wrong with that.
True, we love life, not because we are used to living but because we are used to loving. There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.
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HarlequinZero ( 218 )
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by HarlequinZero »

I agree with Norse to a certain extent. I mean, if the game was really balanced why are you allowed to bring two lists to tournaments and switch between rounds? Even PP knows certain lists will get totally wrecked against certain armies. I'm not saying all games don't suffer from imbalance to a greater or lesser extent, but getting to bring two lists to a tourney seems a cop out on the developers part.

But, my biggest beef with PP is EVERY army is led by a named character so it gives me less room to really personalize my force. However, that seems like it would be largely irrelevant to most of the discussion so far so forgive me. I just needed to air that grievance.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by spiralingcadaver »

The 2-list thing is fine, as long as you always use it. I enter friendly games like tourney games: have 2 lists ready, find out their faction (if they're not doing the same) and decide on which. If both my lists have too many issues, then I've overspecialized.

However, yes, it's hardly ideal.
True, we love life, not because we are used to living but because we are used to loving. There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.
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divine shadow ( 182 )
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by divine shadow »

Let me preface this by saying that I play all the game systems and I wouldn't be very quick to say any one is better than any other as they are all very different. That being said...fantasy blows right now, but I'll not get into it. 40k doesn't really need any defense as so many people love it and will do so until the Heresy actually happens, so I'll talk about WM/H.

One thing that I really like about WM/H is that you can pretty much end the game whenever you feel like it. Just make a 'mistake' and get your caster killed. Winning or losing a minis game isn't so important to my pride that I will continue to play a game that is absolutely no fun when there is an easy way out.

How many times have you been on the receiving end of an Imperial Guard gun line and wondering why the guy keeps shooting all his 12+ tanks and 20+ units on turn 6 when he's already won 3 turns ago? Wouldn't it be nice if there was an easy 'game over' button so you don't have to sit around putting away your models for an hour?

Changing out a $10 model (Warcaster) WILL change your whole force. Can anyone name another game where $10 will effectively buy a new army?

The best thing about WM/H is that the rules make sense. You don't have to wait to be wounded to see if your armor will 'save' you. It's all incorporated in one step. Did you get hit hard enough to crush your armor? How bad did it hurt you? Makes sense to me. I'm in combat with something that I don't want to be should I just suck it up or leave? I can shoot my own guys to achieve my goals. A lot of the rules just make a ton of real world sense and aren't so abstract that you'll play them blindly just because they are rules.
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by spiralingcadaver »

divine shadow wrote:One thing that I really like about WM/H is that you can pretty much end the game whenever you feel like it. Just make a 'mistake' and get your caster killed. Winning or losing a minis game isn't so important to my pride that I will continue to play a game that is absolutely no fun when there is an easy way out.

How many times have you been on the receiving end of an Imperial Guard gun line and wondering why the guy keeps shooting all his 12+ tanks and 20+ units on turn 6 when he's already won 3 turns ago? Wouldn't it be nice if there was an easy 'game over' button so you don't have to sit around putting away your models for an hour?
I'm not going to comment on throwing games, but I do appreciate how in WM there is (often) the ability to pull out a win, comes with games that aren't based on attrition.
Changing out a $10 model (Warcaster) WILL change your whole force.
Can anyone name another game where $10 will effectively buy a new army?
I used to claim this, but there are several problems that I've come to realize:
1: while you can radically alter your army by changing casters, it doesn't mean you'll make even a decent army. (expanded on in 3)

2: people (myself previously included) seem to remember every price hike GW has ever made while ignoring the typically increasing prices of PP minis. While they have done a nice job keeping most minis in the ballpark of the same price, their minis have been steadily increasing in price: while casters were originally in the $5-10 range with a few outliers, now they're much more in the $15-25 range because they are more elaborate and PP realized they can charge more for them

3: when you change your caster, in many situations, you're also changing at least 1 unit ($50-100/10-20% of army) and jack/beast ($25-50/10-20$ of army), and often a solo ($10-25, up to 10% of army), meaning that, until you have a large collection (and even then, sometimes), you're spending $100+ to change your army and keep the change effective. You can argue that some casters can play with identical lists, but this ultimately will mean either one or both lists are less effective with the caster, or your casters are similar enough in play style that you're talking about a change in iteration, not army.
Can anyone name another game where $10 will effectively buy a new army?
Many skirmish/low model count games? DLC? Some board game expansions (yes, there are military board games)?
The best thing about WM/H is that the rules make sense.
Mostly, until people start breaking the game (for instance, if you're not looking at a shield guarding model, but are looking at the model it guards out of the corner of your eye, you can target the defender without the bodyguard stepping in. Or the fact that good scouts (read: hunter) shoot through walls (ignore trenches, walls, etc.).
You don't have to wait to be wounded to see if your armor will 'save' you. It's all incorporated in one step. Did you get hit hard enough to crush your armor? How bad did it hurt you? Makes sense to me.
Saving comes from D&D, where saving represents dodging as much as it represents armor, and was what you do to reduce damage. I assume it was for a couple streamlining reasons, and mostly so the defender feels like they can stop something, while the attacker isn't stopped mid attack. While I agree that the order doesn't make any sense, the rule actually allows for some more nuance in expression of weapons and toughness (there's a difference between someone who's well armored and someone who is hard as nails). I think both systems have merits, but it's hardly like PP invented not having a save.
I
'm in combat with something that I don't want to be should I just suck it up or leave? I can shoot my own guys to achieve my goals.
Again, hardly revolutionary.
A lot of the rules just make a ton of real world sense and aren't so abstract that you'll play them blindly just because they are rules.
The problem with your arguments is that it looks like you're comparing your experience with GW to PP exclusively. This is something I used to do, but a greater context will yield better results. How does PP compare to a flexible board game? How does it compare to skirmish scale games? How does it compare to card games?
True, we love life, not because we are used to living but because we are used to loving. There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.
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I expect honesty about models' conditions, thank you.

If I don't respond in a day or two, please check back, I've forgotten-sorry.
divine shadow ( 182 )
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Re: Am I missing something? WM/HRDS

Post by divine shadow »

I don't really get what your post is trying to accomplish other than say PP isn't the first company to do some things and you don't like my style 'cause I get things on the cheap. My response would be "So what!" This thread is about the merits or lack there of of WM/H and not who did what first.

I was comparing it to GW because that is what most people play and understand. There's not point in comparing it to the mechanics of AT-43 (Which was one of the best skirmish/army games in my opinion) because people wouldn't understand what I was getting at. (You are more accurate at close range, take cover saves before the shot ever gets to you and infantry hit with anti-tank rounds just dies without the roll!!)

Maybe $10 dollars is a little off for warcasters, but that was the price neighborhood when I bought all but 2 of my casters. For highly competitive play, you might need tons of stuff if you feel that's how you need to go about it, but the same can be said about any game system. Where's the new argument there? Here's an example of a sample army where switching out the warcaster just changes the army.

~35 points ~$150 retail
Cygnar Battlebox
Journeyman Warcaster
10 Long gunners
Defender/Cyclone/Iron Clad/Hammersmith (just a few magnets)

This list is interchangeable with all 3 Cygnar prime casters, Sloan, Siege, Epics.....


Card games and board games don't really compare well to table top war games as they are self contained and the latter is far more expensive than most other hobbies. Board games are great, but not usually as fun when you only play with two people so I didn't feel the need to bring them up.
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