Thinking of developing an "open" fantasy skirmish system...

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ancientsociety ( 842 )
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Thinking of developing an "open" fantasy skirmish system...

Post by ancientsociety »

Prior to my work on Inquisimunda, I had thought a lot about developing a system that mixes elements of both tabletop gaming and role-playing games. I'm sure there are a lot of gamers who think "well, there's always Mordheim." and I do agree. However, I've found Mordheim to be more than a little restrictive with model/warband types and constrained by focusing on the GW Warhammer world.

My idea is to develop a system whereby players can take miniatures from ANY manufacturer and build small-sized forces from the ground up. The system would be primarily focused on 28/30mm models, but could easily be adapted to larger (40mm, 54mm) or smaller (15mm) scales. For example, I have a few old Rackham Ophidians and some Reaper human figs and I'd like to make a force with them. The system would then be:

-First, choose Race/Species; giving basic cost and stats
-Next, choose background; giving access to initial skills, weapons, and classes
-Choose Class
-Choose weapons, armor, & equipment
-Costing complete, unless choosing an initial upgrade such as veteran, leader, etc.

Do this for each and every model in your group. All players then choose an initial unit cost cap (think '1000pt game') and play their game(s). Additionally, there would be a campaign system so players could link games, build skills, increase stats, etc. Each class would have it's own skill "tree", with the option of limited Class-switching at certain experience levels.

This is the basic framework I'd like to provide players with but I'm sure I've left many good ideas out. My question is - what do you think? If you're interested, what are some things you'd like to see incorporated into a ruleset such as this?
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imp522 ( 730 )
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Re: Thinking of developing an "open" fantasy skirmish system

Post by imp522 »

Sounds like something I'd play just going by your brief description. Any rules that would allow me to use any of the figures I've acquired over the years are a good thing in my mind. One of the reason I like Reaper's Warlord game so much.

Something's I'd like to see
a magic system were the spells are helpful but not game changing in the sense of if I get spell x off half your force is gone.
Scalability:something that can handle anything from say a dozen models up to 50-60ish of them.
Ability to handle the really big monsters/warmachines
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Re: Thinking of developing an "open" fantasy skirmish system

Post by themailedfist »

Very interesting!

Back when the OGL/d20 stuff was really exploding, there was a lot of discussion of making an open source miniatures game. The OGL specifically disallowed such, as I recall - I think it was at the time of Chainmail mark II, and WoTC didn't want anything competing with their toe-dip into the minis gaming world. (I still have a soft spot for Chainmail, but that's another story)

I know once upon a time Reaper's Warlord/CAV engine (called RAGE) was going to be open source, but that apparently died quickly if it was ever "live" at all. (I was involved with the dev of each in their infancy but honestly didn't prefer where they ended up)

Mongoose's Battlefield Evolution was briefly open - there are two companies that made/make supplements for it. It's largely the same game system as their Starship Troopers release, which was actually really good. (Written by Andy Chambers, before he jumped onto the Blizzard Entertainment megalith)

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Re: Thinking of developing an "open" fantasy skirmish system

Post by kturock »

Check out Savage World's FREE Showdown rules.

http://www.peginc.com/Downloads/Showdown/Showdown.pdf

There's a free version of the demo Savage Worlds rules.

http://www.peginc.com/Downloads/SWEX/TD06.pdf

Here's a link to the downloads:

http://www.peginc.com/downloads.html

The full Savage Worlds Explorer's Edition rules cost $10 at most FLGS.
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Re: Thinking of developing an "open" fantasy skirmish system

Post by MagickalMemories »

@MailedFist

I miss Chainmail, too. Miss it tons. I thought it was a great little skirmish system & LOVED that, essentially, it was d20 wargaming.

Back on topic...

There actually have been games like this. Back in the late 80's, there was an older guy who bought damned near every new thing that came out, just to try it. He used to wrangle us younger guys into trying things out from time to time.

One of the games was a "Bring a miniature. Play it" kind of thing. You got X points to build your guy. Different levels of stat cost different prices. If you bought some big gigantic monstrosity, you probably had a lot of HP and a really tough guy, but you lacked in any kind of range, your move suffered, etc., since everything had a cost associated with it.
If you brought a guy with a lasgun & I brought a bow & arrow & we paid the same points for each, they had the same stats. Plate mail might've been equal to Power Armor or something. Etc.
I'd probably give a game like this a try again. Might be a perfect little diversion for my D&D group on nights when we have more than one cancellation. My 13 year old daughter would probably like it, too.


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Re: Thinking of developing an "open" fantasy skirmish system

Post by kwiker »

Color me interested; this is something that I have attempted with my brother back in the days (grade school) with legos & dice... ah, good times.

A couple of references that might be useful:
- Charlie Foxtrot (it's a free ruleset for Modern SpecOp... really messy in my opinion but worth a read in regards to some of the mechanics)
LINK: http://www.miniaturewargaming.com/index ... read/1019/

- Steve Jackson's GURPS (it's a simple, yet, highly customizable RPG system that you can use to create practically any character from any genre you want... mostly with point costs; excellent reference)

- Final Fantasy Tactics (A Playstation Japanese-Tactical RPG by Squaresoft that I have wasted quite a chunk of my life with... I did more calculations for my playthroughs of this game then Calculus class and practically taught myself Microsoft Excel in order to do spreadsheets for my characters - I digress... the game uses a very robust Job system giving each character you create the option to take on various roles, which, depending how long you keep them in the respective roles, confers a specific stat growth as well as additional, Job-specific abilities. You can create a "Jack-of-all-Trades" or a single-role Specialist. To account for this, the game includes 2 leveling systems: the basic EXP system for Leveling, and JP - Job Points, for leveling of the Job.)
LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fant ... s#Gameplay

- Command & Conquer: Red Alert 2 (A PC Real-Time Strategy Game by Westwood Studios. Introduced the idea of "leveling" up basic units if you manage to keep them alive long enough; normally with these games, you create a bunch of basic grunts and send them off to "die"... occasionally, a few units with wind up staying alive - only to die in the next wave that you send them on. This makes good sense in that units that have had combat experience are better at their jobs thus, distinguishing the "Green" units from "Veteran" units. RA2 has two levels of Promotion: once to Veteran and twice to Elite. Promotions confer not only stat boosts, but also additional abilities for some units.)
LINK: http://www.giantbomb.com/command-conque ... /61-18072/ (scroll down to Gameplay or search "promotion")

Just some thoughts - here's to hoping that it is possible to pack all of these "awesomeness" together without it turning to turd. :-P

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melquisedeq ( 42 )
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Re: Thinking of developing an "open" fantasy skirmish system

Post by melquisedeq »

Hey, it's a been a while but I just wanted to subscribe to this ish! Anything you need, ask away, good sir.
I've been after something like this for a LOOONG while, no luck, and have come to the conclusion that the only way to get it is to make it.

The way I envisioned it was a keyword point-buy system for both active and passive skills that worked in 3 scale levels: type, sub-type and individual.
For example, you have the type "Dragon" - keywords "reptile" "large" "winged" "command reptiles". A subtype would be "Black Dragon" - keywords "ranged attack - acid line" "cause fear" "amphibious". And then the individual dragon himself - e.g. keywords "mount" "evil" "huge" "spellcaster - black magic"... You get the picture.
As for the profile attributes, type keywords would provide a base set of numbers, subtype would modify them further and finally the individual choices would be dependent on those numbers, possibly with the option of straight up point-buying +1's to meet the requirements for a certain skill. In the above instance of the black dragon mount, let's say that the vanilla version of a dragon type of the black subtype has an intelligence attribute of 6. A black magic user needs 8. The dude making that dragon would have had to pay for an additional 2 points of Int to be able to buy that magic trait. Some negative traits may cheapen a unit by limiting it in some way, like for instance "stupid" which would cap Int at 4, disallowing the purchase of magic ability for that unit, or "beast" which would cap Int at 1 or 2, disallowing not only the purchase of most Int-based skills but also severely limit the Leadership radius others units may affect it (thus requiring a handler or a rider to ensure it doesn't run after being wounded).

Well, those were just little illustrations of how I imagine a fun skirmish campaign system would be. Something with the long-term campaign / character investment appeal of Mordheim, but without the faction lists. And something like Song of Blades and Heroes point-buy creation, but without the oversimplified "one-stat fits all" combat system. The one thing I see with a free-form point-buy system is the potential for unbalanced combos os abilities, which would require EXTENSIVE playtesting to identify and sort out, on a scale rivalling major game publishers. It's no fun if "flyer" "dodger" "ranged attack - death blast" "immune to magic" are a 99% win combo, because then everyone will field their version instead of picking what minis they want to try first, and THEN statting them out.

I've asked in quite a few forums if something of this nature would be interesting, and the usual replies are either A) Mordheim (or similar big-boy's list-based games), B) Song of Blades and Heroes (or similar indie simplistic games) or C) I only buy Games Workshop (or Privateer Press or whatever other single-company multi-lines manufacturer). Would be great to field a fleeing necromancer who hired some bugbear bodyguards against his pursuer, a shapechanging berserker from whom he stole an amulet, and his wolfpack.

Anyway, let me know if I can help. Cheers!
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Re: Thinking of developing an "open" fantasy skirmish system

Post by ancientsociety »

Thanks all, I started writing the rules just recently. Hope to have preliminary play-test rules up in the coming months...
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Re: Thinking of developing an "open" fantasy skirmish system

Post by kokigami »

genesha games - song of blades and heroes and others for other Milieu
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Re: Thinking of developing an "open" fantasy skirmish system

Post by melquisedeq »

Any news on this, mate?
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Re: Thinking of developing an "open" fantasy skirmish system

Post by ancientsociety »

Nothing yet. While I'd like to start on this, my personal life hasn't been exactly easy enough lately to start writing. Perhaps once the weather turns and I'm inside more often, I'll get a chance to do so.

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions and I will keep you updated.
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Re: Thinking of developing an "open" fantasy skirmish system

Post by melquisedeq »

Thanks ;)
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Re: Thinking of developing an "open" fantasy skirmish system

Post by Wandyr »

Aetherverse is something along these lines. We used it to play Star Wars miniatures games. Check it out for some ideas. I believe the 1st edition rules can be downloaded for free somewhere.
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Re: Thinking of developing an "open" fantasy skirmish system

Post by melquisedeq »

Aetherverse seems pretty good and the most like what I imagined so far, but I'll insist further on the point-buy if I may...
Although I've already given up on finding those rules hiding in the deep confines of the world wide web, I haven't desisted on having them made, more likely than not by annoying someone to come up with them one day. :twisted:

Succintly:
- open to any setting (fantasy, modern, near or far future, intergalactic, post-apocalyptic, or any hybrid of these and others);
- complex point-buy, no-army-list system that fields a rag-tag band of whatever rather than an army - the actual organization of the figures in the field is up to my tacticals whims, not for ease-of-force-building purposes;
- mathematically simple gameplay with positional and circumstancial depth but little record-keeping and chart-consulting, perhaps initiave activations with room for reactions rather than UGO IGO;
- campaigning is a must, but in the RPG sense more than the war sense - the possibility for continued investment in characters as a reward to the survivors of each game, some way to determine extent of injury and long-term implications (or death), and the aquisition of upgraded equipment (or loss);
- probably a system that will still depend a lot on friendly arbitration, rather than "refer to the book", but I guess that's the price of making this system's eventual existance "highly unlikely for now" rather than just "lulz - you idiot".

Hey ancientsociety, mate: you better hurry, the muffin I bought as a reward for this is not keeping very well :mrgreen:
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