Thinking about eldar 40k and help with a starting point

[Grumiuk]

I am thinking about playing 40k again. I would like to get Eldar. I played the game around 2nd edition briefly then I ended up selling all my marine stuff later.

Is the Eldar Ghost Warriors box set a good starting point? Right now I have 1 old eldar dreadnought and a warp spider squad from when I played in 1994. I actually just opened up the dreadnought box and took a look. I have pmed a few people on here about the stuff that they are selling, but I figured I better ask here rather then spending alot of money and not getting a good starting army made up.

Any and all help would be appreciated.

[redbeard.40k]

I've played primarily Eldar for the last 5 years. IMHO, if you're willing to lay down the cash then the Ghost Warriors box set is a pretty good deal, but it doesn't give you any troop choices, which would require a bit of further investment. However, Wraiths as a whole are solid units, especially now that they're not hindered by the Wraithsight rule. Wraithlords are pretty hardy in 6th Edition, but have suffered like a lot of other Monsterous Creatures in that they tend to die fairly quickly spearheading your force. The Wraithknight is a pretty huge kit, but isn't necessarily terrifying on the table, and Wraiths now have 4 builds instead of just one, so you have some versatility as to what role they play in your army.

I think the set would put you on some pretty solid footing, but you're honestly looking at spending $300 in models, paints, and supplies just to start again. The kit deals can be pretty sweet because they save you money and give you a good reference point of what to do next with your army, but if you have a budget then I think the investment price is pretty steep.

[MagickalMemories]

Forget, for a minute, how good a deal it is.
Have you looked at the codex?
Do you have a build in mind?

With GW pricing being what it is, I'd suggest settling on a list first. No need to spend money on things you don't need andor won't use.
Do you have any buddies who play? Maybe you can borrow models from them, if so, and proxy some lists?

Step 1 is to get an idea of a list or 2 you think you'd like.
Step 3 is to put a priority on collecting THOSE models.

IMO, you want to have 2 Wraithknights and 2 Crimson Hunters/Flyers available to you, as well as 2 Farseers. After that, there are a lot of different options. IMO, those are models you'll use on a regular basis, if not ALWAYS.

Eric

[Grumiuk]

I ended up sticking with Eldar. I bought the Ghost Warriors boxed and now have some other stuff from a trade. Thanks for the help guys. I almost forgot I made this thread. It took a while for everyone to reply so I did my own thing.

[psiekier]

The Wraithknight is a pretty huge kit, but isn't necessarily terrifying on the table...

As a Blood Angels player who would be in the opposing deployment zone, I can say that it certainly would terrify me!

IMO, you want to have 2 Wraithknights and 2 Crimson Hunters/Flyers available to you, as well as 2 Farseers.

This sounds like the basis for some kind of"Pay-to-Win" strategy (~$400 retail for just the four big models, innit? And not even a single Troops choice?), but I would be naive if I didn't think that's what 40K is about these days. The suits are in charge at GW, not the studio ladz.

We Blood Angels are in a rough place. Since our codex is so old, the only way we can have real anti-air defense (barring a Stormraven Gunship to engage the enemy flyer in a 41st-millennium dogfight) is to either bring in a Fortifications choice with a Skyfire weapon or ally with an army that has such things built into their list already.

That initial point aside, I was looking over my 1,500 point army the other day, admiring the cleverness of some of my choices, when I realized that a household of four Imperial Knights is 1,480 points (and almost $500 if you're paying retail prices). I might be able to take some objectives early in the game by splitting up into Combat Squads, but if the game goes more than three or four turns, I would be astounded if 1). I had any scoring units left on the table and 2). I was able to destroy any of the enemy models.

Sure, there are ways around anything. The perfect answer for high-Toughness nasties like Wraithlords and Wraithknights is massed fire from poisoned weapons like sniper rifles or Hellfire shells. They may get an armour save, but how many saves can they expect to roll successfully each turn? On the other hand, those same units of snipers and Sternguard would be hard-pressed to inflict even a single hull point worth of damage on a Knight.

[MagickalMemories]

IMO, you want to have 2 Wraithknights and 2 Crimson Hunters/Flyers available to you, as well as 2 Farseers.

This sounds like the basis for some kind of"Pay-to-Win" strategy (~$400 retail for just the four big models, innit? And not even a single Troops choice?), but I would be naive if I didn't think that's what 40K is about these days. The suits are in charge at GW, not the studio ladz.

That is a kind of pessimistic way of looking at it, but it's not 100% untrue.
In reality, I think it's a rather pragmatic way of looking at it (IMO). Here's why:
1) 2 standard WKnights are TOUGH with a good save. Their stock guns are strong enough to damage anything your opponent fields and, if you add a scatter laser, you can possibly twin link your second gun. Yes. There are times when this has come in handy for me. They fail miserably against massed powerfists or power axes... but you try to stay away from those.
But, with the amount of superheavies entering the game, now (Thank you SOOO much, GW!), you need to have that kind of heavy hitting firepower at your disposal, especially one that is this likely to last until late in the game, at least.

2) The same goes for the fliers. There are a TON of fliers in the game, now. The CHunter is a great option to clear the skies of your enemy's flyers. It also does pretty darn well against High T, Low AV infantry!

3) Psychic powers have their own phase now and, if you don't have it, you'll get walked all over. Two L3 psykers is a nice little boost of ability, Add in the fact that you can get Prescience and Guide, guaranteed, and you will usually increase the shooting capacity of 4 units (and 2 of those in HtH, too) remarkably in your own Psy phase. Add in some Warlock, if possible, for even more Warp Charges.

Troop choices? Well, get ready to see dollar $ign$ again.
2 units of 6 bikes (1 unit per Farseer) will do. If gives your Farseers some ablative wounds and, since you're adding a bike to your Farseer), your psychic mobility is very high, as well.

We Blood Angels are in a rough place. Since our codex is so old, the only way we can have real anti-air defense (barring a Stormraven Gunship to engage the enemy flyer in a 41st-millennium dogfight) is to either bring in a Fortifications choice with a Skyfire weapon or ally with an army that has such things built into their list already.

That initial point aside, I was looking over my 1,500 point army the other day, admiring the cleverness of some of my choices, when I realized that a household of four Imperial Knights is 1,480 points (and almost $500 if you're paying retail prices). I might be able to take some objectives early in the game by splitting up into Combat Squads, but if the game goes more than three or four turns, I would be astounded if 1). I had any scoring units left on the table and 2). I was able to destroy any of the enemy models.

Sure, there are ways around anything. The perfect answer for high-Toughness nasties like Wraithlords and Wraithknights is massed fire from poisoned weapons like sniper rifles or Hellfire shells. They may get an armour save, but how many saves can they expect to roll successfully each turn? On the other hand, those same units of snipers and Sternguard would be hard-pressed to inflict even a single hull point worth of damage on a Knight.

Yeah. BA have it rough. They went down hill in 6e, and have only gotten worse in 7e. Sure, you have people who will come out and tell you how to play a strong BA army... but that it typically by making them into a shooty army which, IMO, is dome better by other SM armies.

Eric

[psiekier]

This sounds like the basis for some kind of"Pay-to-Win" strategy (~$400 retail for just the four big models, innit? And not even a single Troops choice?), but I would be naive if I didn't think that's what 40K is about these days. The suits are in charge at GW, not the studio ladz.

That is a kind of pessimistic way of looking at it, but it's not 100% untrue.

My first game in 6th edition was a fair match-up: each side had two tactical squads, a captain, a dreadnought, and a rhino. I remember back when just about every battle was that evenly matched. Now, it seems like competitiveness has come out in a really ugly way when people who can afford to stack the table with fliers and super heavies - as you already noted.

What I hate more than anything else, though, is reaching into the Forgeworld books to bring out game-winning pieces that are not in your codex. You've never seen travesty until you've seen a well-balanced 2000-point Space Marine army disassembled by a pair of Vendetta gunships sporting twin-linked Punisher cannons as an Imperial Knight strides across the field to finish off any stragglers.

Troop choices? Well, get ready to see dollar $ign$ again.
2 units of 6 bikes (1 unit per Farseer) will do. If gives your Farseers some ablative wounds and, since you're adding a bike to your Farseer), your psychic mobility is very high, as well.

You forgot to add Baron Sathonyx as an ally from a Dark Eldar contingent to take it over the top. If you think I'm being funny or sarcastic, Google "baron sathonyx LVO champion", and you'll see what I mean. GW should reprint the Eldar Codex and just include his entry in it for the sake of convenience.

It's sad that the quintessential Eldar Troops unit, the Guardian, doesn't even dare make an appearance on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium unless he's riding a jetbike! I have a big Plano tackle box full of Guardians (on foot), Howling Banshees, Swooping Hawks... fielding them would make me the rare breed these days!

Yeah. BA have it rough. They went down hill in 6e, and have only gotten worse in 7e. Sure, you have people who will come out and tell you how to play a strong BA army... but that it typically by making them into a shooty army which, IMO, is dome better by other SM armies.

That's The Emperor's honest truth! I thought I'd start a rant here about all the things that are so wrong with being left out in the cold (no AA weapons, no armoury, no relics, only full-strength Tactical Squads can have special or heavy weapons), but it wouldn't be anything you guys haven't heard before.

Besides, this is an Eldar thread.

[MagickalMemories]

What I hate more than anything else, though, is reaching into the Forgeworld books to bring out game-winning pieces that are not in your codex. You've never seen travesty until you've seen a well-balanced 2000-point Space Marine army disassembled by a pair of Vendetta gunships sporting twin-linked Punisher cannons as an Imperial Knight strides across the field to finish off any stragglers.

Not that SPECIFIC example, but I feel your pain.

In my group, we all have Forgeworld pieces - some more than others. When it comes to using them, it's kind of a "feel free" issue, as far as using someone else's stuff.
Well, we've had those games.
FW Lynx (?) in an Eldar army vs. 3 Knights (and more). The Lynx laid SERIOUS waste to the knights with minimal damage in return (it was the jetbikes that actually did most of the damage, actually, with their rending, though).
Chaos Warhound army against a balanced list. Ugh.
The "best," though, was our FIRST "let's see how stupid this can get" game. One side played a Daemons/Gk army (34 WC points on Turn 1) that did nothing but pop Daemons. Psychic phases eventually took almost an hour! The other side played a Brass Scorpion. It killed in droves!

Eric

[psiekier]

What I hate more than anything else, though, is reaching into the Forgeworld books to bring out game-winning pieces that are not in your codex. You've never seen travesty until you've seen a well-balanced 2000-point Space Marine army disassembled by a pair of Vendetta gunships sporting twin-linked Punisher cannons as an Imperial Knight strides across the field to finish off any stragglers.

Not that SPECIFIC example, but I feel your pain.

In my group, we all have Forgeworld pieces - some more than others. When it comes to using them, it's kind of a "feel free" issue, as far as using someone else's stuff.
Well, we've had those games.
FW Lynx (?) in an Eldar army vs. 3 Knights (and more). The Lynx laid SERIOUS waste to the knights with minimal damage in return (it was the jetbikes that actually did most of the damage, actually, with their rending, though).
Chaos Warhound army against a balanced list. Ugh.
The "best," though, was our FIRST "let's see how stupid this can get" game. One side played a Daemons/Gk army (34 WC points on Turn 1) that did nothing but pop Daemons. Psychic phases eventually took almost an hour! The other side played a Brass Scorpion. It killed in droves!

I get a feeling most Forgeworld pieces are intended to make money first, look cool second, and enrich the game a distant third. Sometimes, it seems they get about 15 minutes of actual play-testing before the rules are printed up and bound into a book.

Using a Forgeworld piece to represent something from your codex is fine, even without asking. For example, if I owned a Contemptor dreadnought with a Keres assault cannon, I would just play him as a regular dreadnought. It would be pretty hard to argue with that kind of fairness.

It would also be acceptable, if, by agreement before the game begins, you want to bring in the "other" units. One of the guys up here has the old Ronin "Emperor" figure, and a Forgeworld Adeptus Mechanicus army (mostly the big battle-automata, but enough of the other guys to make it legal) that tips the scales at 3,000 points. Using the Horus Heresy rules for Primarchs as a guideline, it's kinda neat to think any 3,000 point army any of us could come up with could stand a chance against The Emperor of Mankind.

But for a "pick up" game? No, not in the slightest!

[MagickalMemories]

In our group, Superheavy FW is by agreement before list building only. Any other FW is fine. So, it's not uncommon to see Big Squiggoths, Contemptor Dreads, Land Raider variants, etc. They don't really do much to unbalance the armies and aren't usually too bad, as far as holes in the rules go (until a Big Squiggoth is killed, as we have to decide what to do with the unit inside! LOL).

Eric

[Grumiuk]

I have played 3 games now and so far I have:
Hq
1x Avatar
1x Baharroth
1x Farseer
1x Spiritseer

Troops with the Spiritseer
15x wraithguard and magnetized them so I can have 8 troops of any option. I think after playing I like their stock option best
8x rangers

Heavy
5x Wraithlords now after a few trades. I did not mean to have this many. 3 x old metal and 2x from the Ghost warriors box now magnetized
1x Wraithknight from the boxed set
1x Falcon

Elites
13x fire dragons
10 old school harlequin's They really did not do as good as I thought that they would

Fast attack
10x swooping hawks
13x warp spiders
I have 2x wave serpents on the way. I should be getting some Dire Avengers, Dark Reapers, and more spiders soon. I love the Warp spiders. I remember after getting the Blood Angel stuff around 1992 seeing the Spiders and wanting to field a large army of them.

Initial thoughts are that the Avatar is not as good as I thought it would be. The spiders have been great. The Hawks did good in the last game that I played. The Falcon did good in 1 game, but died before I ever got to use it in another one. I have been taking 6x fire dragons with it. Wraithknight did really good. Thanks for the replies. I have to get going.

[psiekier]

I have 2x wave serpents on the way. I should be getting some Dire Avengers, Dark Reapers, and more spiders soon. I love the Warp spiders. I remember after getting the Blood Angel stuff around 1992 seeing the Spiders and wanting to field a large army of them.

Warp Spiders and Wave Serpents sure will lend a boost to your army, both in shootiness and mobility!

Initial thoughts are that the Avatar is not as good as I thought it would be.

The Avatar has his uses, but really only works well when supported properly.

He is an absolute beast in close combat. With a WS of 10 and an I of 10, he can easily wreck any vehicle or dreadnought he touches, and his high number of attacks gives him a good chance of beating enemy characters and monstrous creatures (especially if he looses a S8 melta blast as he charges in!) in melee. The Avatar makes friendly Eldar models nearby Fearless. Surround him with other models to make sure he doesn't get swamped by lots of enemies with high Strength close combat weapons, or he could lose his wounds pretty quickly.

The spiders have been great. The Hawks did good in the last game that I played. The Falcon did good in 1 game, but died before I ever got to use it in another one. I have been taking 6x fire dragons with it. Wraithknight did really good. Thanks for the replies. I have to get going.

Fire Dragons in a Falcon seems like a "gimme". Swooping Hawks give you extra mobility and the element of surprise that not a lot of other units in the game have - at least, not that they can use more than once per game! Besides, against any army with things that have Armour Value instead of Toughness, Haywire Grenades are never a bad thing!

[Grumiuk]

I am now trying to figure out how I want to magnetize the gun options for the Wave Serpents. I am thinking about just doing the scat lasers, or Bright lances and not magnetizing. I can't find a way that I am happy with.

[NuWishA]

No one runs anything but scatter lasers. GW got high and made those Serpents way too good.

My first game of 7th was with my Iyanden. It was 2k with six models.
3 stock wraith knights
1 Wraith seer
1 FW Avatar (with spear)
1 Revenant Titan

The guys I was gaming with demanded I take the army with the titan, as they wanted to kill it.

The army got pretty mauled fairly fast from two SM biker armies. The titan didn't die though.

Also, the wraith seer was just there to look pretty. Of this three powers, he could only use one to try and force a pinning test (which is pointless against a Ravenwing/Deathwing army). The other two only affect wraith lords or wraith guard.

The avatar looked nice and scary though.

By the end of turn three it was 13-3. All that "over powered cheese" managed three whole points.

[psiekier]

By the end of turn three it was 13-3. All that "over powered cheese" managed three whole points.

Sounds like your opponents knew exactly what was coming. Heck, if you tell me what's in your army beforehand and then let me make my army, I could probably scrape together enough Blood Angels to beat it. Can't promise we'll all be painted, though.

One of the complaints I hear frequently about models like knights and other super-heavies is that including them in the game - especially bringing more than one - alters the play so radically that it borders on an unfair surprise. We all know that sometimes, the luck of the draw means that some elements of your army will be more or less effective against a particular foe. Space Marines who stock up on meltaguns and meltabombs could find themselves swamped by a horde of Orks or Tyranids, while a Tyranid army lead by a swarm of Monstrous Creatures might regret facing off against a Dark Eldar force loaded with poisoned weapons. But the gap turns into a yawning chasm when a couple of choices instantly invalidates half or more of what your opponent thought was a fairly balanced force ready to take on all comers.

It's one thing to center your Dark Angels army around a Land Raider with four hull points. It changes the course of the game entirely when you substitute something like a knight - a model with more hull points, a 4+ invulnerable save from shooting, attacks that can destroy models outright, and a host of special rules (immune to Crew Shaken/Crew Stunned/Immobilized/Weapon Destroyed, in addition to Fear, Invincible Behemoth, and Catastrophic Damage) due to its sheer size.