6th edition anyone else dislike?

[3eland]

Vehicles have been nerfed in 6th ed that at least everything can get 'tinged' to death by glances. That's not a tank that's an apc.

Shooting actually matters. Overwatch is back. It needs some work, but...A skroat IG or grot could hit in overwatch as well as a highly trained SM, CSM or Eldar, that makes no sense. [13%]

Flyers are now the new 'vehicles'. [tough things to kill and you have to play for/against.]

Play the odds vs flyers. 1 in 6 will hit it so shoot at it 6 times. I shot 1 down in the 2nd turn. My Havoc squad of 2 ML & 2 LC fired at it for 2 turns. 1 in 8 hots hit it and took it out. [6.6.6. not just the number of the beast]

Ya I hate how easy it is to shut down a vehicle, yet it is neigh impossible to hit a flyer. So you make vehicles weaker only to make flyers all but indestructible. I disagree with giving flyers any sort of save. You already make them near impossible to hit that should account for the fact that they would be hard to shoot down.

Now overwatch, when I first heard it was going to be in the book I was thinking Epic. Then i read it and i was like this is total crap. Basically a free spray shot at something. They should have went with overwatch where you mark your unit, which allows that unit to forfeit their shooting in their turn, to take a shot in your opponents turn. Granted in timed games it would throw things out of whack. think about the strategy though which could revolve around shooting. basically waiting for a better shot (as your opponent advances), or negating your shooting when you can only see a small part of the unit behind a building that will end up moving through to engage you in hand to hand, u go in overwatch readying your rifles to try to shoot down the chargers...

Not to mention it would make assaults more risky, and make people try to decide if they want to advance or not if there are 3-4 units sitting in overwatch. The overwatch should be resolved at full BS at this point.

Well overwatch only hits on 6's, so a 1/6 chance for each model and only the models that are being assaulted can shoot (other than tau now). Easy way around it is assault with a small unit of fodder (I usually use a small unit of Hormagaunts or Termagants) and then assault with your big unit (like my Genestealers or Raveners). Due to how overwatch is done, they have to choose whether or not to shoot at the small unit of termagants (remember a unit may only overwatch once), due to the way the rules are stated once they have decided to shoot or not they may not shoot at another unit once the initial charged unit is in melee (not like fantasy where you charge first and then continue with spells and ranged attack BEFORE starting the melee. Also remember that in 40K each charge is separate, they do not all happen at the same time. You assault with one unit, resolve all the stuff and then move to the next unit). So either waste the bullets on my 20 odd points of termagants which I probably produced via Tervigon or give up your shooting all together once my Genestealers assault. Then, by positioning your fodder around the unit as best as you can, you can maximize what your Genestealers can kill and minimize Genestealers death as close combat wounds may only be distributed to models base to base (for models that are within 2" from the base to base model they MUST attack the same model that is base to base so you can't have one model throwing attacks 5" away from a Genestealer lol), so if 85% of the enemy models are base to base against my fodder unit, my Genestealers are safe as you cannot allocate wounds done to one unit over to another if there are any extra. Models that are base to base with two or more units must choose which unit to attack, so the one or two models that can attack my Genestealers MIGHT kill one, depends on if I assaulted into or out of cover. Once combat is over you get your 3" movement which you use to get all your Genestealers into base to base (or within 2") with as many enemy models because the next round of close combat your for sure going first with Init 6!

So that being said, overwatch is "okay" (unless your tau of course), but there are ways around it. HTH is actually not as bad as most people think if your smart at how you place your units and how you charge with them, trust me I play nids, HTH is like our biggest thing lol. Now I realize other armies don't really have as good of "fodder" as nids but the same principles exist essentially, using tanks as walls to funnel shooting/close combat or terrain hopping can make HTH flexible in your favour.

However, flyers do still suck lol.

[3eland]

So quick update, played against my tau friend with my nids. The amount of marker lights and monster hunter he was able to pull off was devastating lol, not to mention the amount of over-watch WOW. Going to need a new tactic against this B.O.B. looking race.
(B.O.B. for those who don't know was an old school robot Nintendo gave away back in the early days and has shown up in a few games since lol)

EDIT: Maybe more Biovores! AP 4 Barrage shots will set them straight

[MagickalMemories]

Yeah... if you're fighting Tau, now, the ONLY way is to shoot them back. Even then, good luck.

Chaos might have some luck, if it can get enough Dirge Casters up there, but Chaos is an expensive list to begin with, and taking a bunch of tanks with DC's would just make it more so. Especially since, if you want to take it on an Assault Vehicle, you only have the Land Raider.


Eric

[TheRhino]

[

<SNIP>
My only other major gripe is the massive collection of holes and questiosn created by Fortifications. Terms and vocabulary in that entire section of rules are used to vaguely and interchangably that it invariably leads to an argument any time someone brings the Fortress of Redemption or a Skyshield Landing pad to a tournament.

Have you seen the Tau dex? If you have any reasonably skilled Tau players locally, you're HOSED.

Also, what kinds of fortification problems are you seeing?

Lastly, I'd gladly allow my partner to take a Fortress of Redemption. I'd welcome it, in fact. My Dark Eldar LOVE blowing up buildings and annihilating the units in/on them.

Eric

The FoR model causes all sorts of problems due to its limited access points.
We're also seeing arguments regarding the semantics of "emplaced" and "emplacement". Some players who favor the FoR claim that the guns on the fort are indestructible due to the use of the term "emplaced" instead of "emplacement". You can shoot at the gun on the roof of a Bastion, but because of one root word ending differently, you can't shoot the guns off of the Fortress, or some jazz like that.
There are also fights over drawing LOS from the Krakstorm battery versus models in B2B with it. If you draw LOS from the battery, it never HAS LOS and always scatters, whereas if you draw from the based model's head, you might have LOS and get a scatter reduction from ballistic skill (which matters when a Daemon player plops a BS9 model on the battery).

We've also had problem with the Skyshield, as the rules for moving onto and off of it get wonky. It's a difficult terrain test to get down now, but do you still count the 4" drop? Some players claim that since it's a DT now, and doesn't use access points, they can remove the model from the top, and simply place it underneath without moving to an edge first. Others are trying to move vehicles off the pad freely (seriously, Manticores parked on the pad for the 4++ save), claiming that the DT doesn't affect them because it's just a test, not actual difficult terrain.

Granted, we have some players locally who cannot separate the "winWinWIN" attitude from normal play, and will bend every rule they can for an advantage. But the loopholes exist regardless.

[MagickalMemories]

Me perspective is from my experience. I play in a group of 4 people in one of our homes. We don't try to Rules lawyer and we agree -even if after arguing- what the RAI is and use that. If there's a disagreement, then majority rules. If there's a tie, we dice off.
Someone in our group trying that Manticore trick, for example, would get told to F off by... well, everyone else. LOL

I consider myself fortunate in that regard.

Eric

[blackheart666]

Sorry that I'm a little late to this thread.

I happen to really like 6th Edition. I've already played more games in 6th than I did during all of 4th AND 5th edition.

But as far as actual problems with how people play certain rules, well... this hobby seems to attract a lot of people that could be described as "that guy". "That guy" is like a bad penny, he always turns up. Unfortunately you just gotta shove him out the door and get on with having fun. "That guy" has been "that guy" for time eternal and he'll continue to be regardless of how tightly they make the rules.

[reegsk]

IMO, the only failings of sixth edition are the amount of randomness in it and the fact that it's, essentially, a whole new game, so the major abuses have yet to be ironed out.

I LOVE sixth edition, and here's why - it's a step back to 2nd Edition. What do I mean by that? Flip through the rulebook, and highlight every time they say "forging a narrative", "creating a story", etc., etc. It's no longer about beating in people's faces to validate your existence in the one aspect of your life that you're good at (can you tell I hate WAAC players?). It's moving back toward the, "Hey man, I have a crapton of models. Want to put our entire collections on the table and see what happens?" I think GW tried to move toward "balanced" and competitive play with possibly 4th and definitely 5th edition, realized it couldn't be done without SOMEONE getting pissed off, and someone, somewhere had the brilliant realization that this is a game and it's meant to be fun. It started as what is essentially a roleplaying game given physical form. Now it's still a long ways away from that, but this is a step in what I consider to be the right direction. Overwatch is great, Snapfire is great, Allies are pure genius both from a storytelling perspective AND a marketing perspective ("Oh, you can't decide between Space Marines and Imperial Guard? Why not both?!")

Now it does have some major flaws. I love random charges, but a pure dice roll is kind of bogus. At least in Fantasy you have a static Movement value. I know my Dwarfs will charge a bare minimum of 5" (3" Movement plus 2d6), and fast units are still fast, like Bretonnian cav will always charge at least 10". But without any sort of static number, your charge is completely random. Yes, you are most likely to roll a 7, but there's no guarantee you'll roll anything above a 2. And since you take Overwatch shots regardless of whether you make your charge, you might get shot up a little, then hit with Rapid Fire, and THEN hit with Overwatch again if you're still alive to charge the next turn. I think they could have easily done something like D6+3", with faster units either getting a greater static number or rolling additional dice. Overwatch could be better, but I'm just glad it's back. I would prefer to see it like it used to be, where you forgo firing to shoot in your opponent's turn, but I'll take it as it is.

Another big issue are the psychic powers. I do like how they kind of simplified it by adding more rules. You don't have to worry about when powers are cast or how many you can cast with Warp Charge. What concerns me is that you are rolling randomly for them now. It's not such a big deal to me, I roll a Nurgle Sorcerer or Typhus, so I'm rolling two or three dice on a chart that has three options. But if you have a ML one or two psyker trying to take BRB psychic powers, you're in for a complete crap shoot unless you want the baseline power (which, if you're a Primaris Psyker, you do). In Fantasy it's not as big a deal. Your powerful wizard is going to be rolling four dice on a chart of six, and if you roll a double you get that spell and then CHOOSE any other spell from the list. In 40k, you're rolling one or two dice (unless your CSM, Eldar or SM) on a chart of five, and if you roll doubles you keep the one you rolled and have to re-roll.

I have the same argument against Warlord Traits. Why make it random? TBH, I don't use them most of the time after they're rolled, because they tend to be useless. Of course, I always make the argument that, in a for-fun pickup game, you can JUST CHOOSE ALL OF THESE THINGS TO "FORGE YOUR NARRATIVE", but most of my local gamers haven't caught on to the concept of "for funsies" yet.

Hopefully the "for fun" "creating a narrative" way of thinking will catch on. Yes, still bring your most competitive list to tourneys (sorry Tyranid players), but the majority of your pickup games should just be a fun, dice-rolling experience where the better part of the game is the crazy stuff that happens. A great example are the new Daemons. Yes, that chart you roll on is potentially insane, but also kind of hilarious. It would suck to have your Grey Knight Grand Master killed like that because your opponent rolled randomly on a chart in a tourney, but in a fun game I'd find it hilarious.

Anyway, I suppose I differ from a lot of people in my opinions. My greatest memories of past games aren't how badly I beat the other guy (well, once, but he was a real douche and we were in a campaign). Perhaps my best 40k moment was in a three-for-all battle where nine thousand points were reduced to a single Grey Knight Terminator and three Ork Boyz. At the end of the game, there was one ork boy left alive. Good times!