thouhgt about new csm codex.

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kturock ( 566 )
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Re: thouhgt about new csm codex.

Post by kturock » Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:55 pm

I own 2 dreads and and a hellbrute on order. If the dreads are basicly mk1 HB, I'm now stuck with 3 models that are elites. Which, short of playing apocalypse, is the limit.
So, now I either sell the new HB and use the dreads as proxies, or hope to sell 1 of the dreads and keep the HB.
HB's go for about $20-25 on feebay... the dreads were over double that. now....? they're not even selling for $20. FW csm dreads are only in the $30-40 range.
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Re: thouhgt about new csm codex.

Post by spiralingcadaver » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:46 pm

usernamesareannoying wrote:awesome post spiralingcadaver.
Thanks!

I forgot the ork specialist lists, so added those, too...

Kturock, I know it sucks, and it's definitely grounds for being really pissed off (I know I sold a lot of stuff when my special lists were no longer legal), but GW has always shuffled force org, and, with rare exception (rare or particularly good sculpts), the market always crashes on older edition minis when a new variant appears.

It just feels like you're stating stuff that's been a problem for years.

Also, I'm not sure where the SM hate is coming from-- there are some arguably broken chapter codexes, but I've never heard any particular complaint about vanilla marines.
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Re: thouhgt about new csm codex.

Post by kturock » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:26 pm

The SM hate is because they have the drop pod assault. On turn 1, they can put half their force on the table, in the middle of the board or in your deployment area. No one else can do it. Now the nid have 'learned' to use drop pods. The not 'chapter approved' FW Deathclaw for csm, even if your opponent 'allows' it, can't perform the same thing. I was told by aDP assault player, that if he new my LR Proteus had the relay he wouldn't have agrred to let me use a 'non-approved FW model'.

Yes the SM are the favored children, they're the symbol for GW & 40K.
Heh, I was called a Grognard. ;-)
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Re: thouhgt about new csm codex.

Post by leth » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:02 am

Ehh, I have actually tried out the new CSM and they are quite good. I lost but that was more towards my errors in both list building and execution.

Hellbrute = Dreadnaught, failing to see where the problem is. Plague marines and emperors children got flat out better. Thousand sons are the only ones that I can really see complaining about anything at all really. Khorne is different use now, however with two characters that give guaranteed infiltrate, having 1-3 blocks of khorne bezerkers infiltrating scares the *edit* out of me.

Bikes, Raptors, havocs, obliterators, all got better, Powers got better, we got a wargear section back, hatred all marines for cheap, as well as the versatility to almost play however you want while not gimping yourself. Seems solid so far, if this is the direction that all the codexes are going to go I am one hell of a happy camper.
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Re: thouhgt about new csm codex.

Post by kturock » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:02 am

emperor's children got bette, but sonic blasters are now rapid fire.
my problem is the same it's always been with GW; making minis obsolete.
i have 2 dreads and 1 HB, so I have 3.

does anyone in any army field 3 deads? I was most likely going to sell 1, now it'll be 2. and since the models been replace, they're worth less.
A $50+ model now worth maybe $20. [check ebay prices]..the FW model have lowered too on ebay.
Heh, I was called a Grognard. ;-)
MY ALWAYS TRADE LIST: Scar Weaver, wmeredith, bloodstrike, tionas, wetstone, Frank Austin, akum, SW-DABOSS, Galador, nahatley, Joeb, Squeakula, mongse, con-fusion, basaint, jugglingfool, IsaiahTheBarbarian, Purple40k, Standard of War, BA-Best .

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Re: thouhgt about new csm codex.

Post by leth » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:13 pm

Yep, I am going on 5 Space marine dreadnaughts, eventually I want all of the FW Venerable ones(cause they look awesome)

I have over 150 marines. Never gonna play that many outside apocalypse

Here is the thing, you could use this as a opportunity to have them equipped differently. Save on the hassle of magnetizing, or paint them up in different schemes to go with different armies.

Since you are not likely to run three at a time, there are always options for what you could do with them. They have not made a unit unusable in the current book in quite awhile.
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Re: thouhgt about new csm codex.

Post by eman1_2 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:56 pm

I personally am not happy with the new book. I was hoping to finally be able to run a proper Iron Warriors list, but that is not an option. I will have to take the genric stuff, and hope the generic as can be list in the book plays well.

All I was looking for was thunderhammer / storm shield termies, and maybe extra heavy weapons instead of the assault weapons.

Or, may just trade off my 2 DV sets, and be done with it.
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Re: thouhgt about new csm codex.

Post by kturock » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:18 pm

I was keeping my vindi just for IW.. I guess the warpsmith is as good as we can hope for.. and the siege special ability.
Heh, I was called a Grognard. ;-)
MY ALWAYS TRADE LIST: Scar Weaver, wmeredith, bloodstrike, tionas, wetstone, Frank Austin, akum, SW-DABOSS, Galador, nahatley, Joeb, Squeakula, mongse, con-fusion, basaint, jugglingfool, IsaiahTheBarbarian, Purple40k, Standard of War, BA-Best .

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Re: thouhgt about new csm codex.

Post by spiralingcadaver » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:18 pm

kturock wrote:emperor's children got bette, but sonic blasters are now rapid fire.
my problem is the same it's always been with GW; making minis obsolete.
i have 2 dreads and 1 HB, so I have 3.

does anyone in any army field 3 deads? I was most likely going to sell 1, now it'll be 2. and since the models been replace, they're worth less.
A $50+ model now worth maybe $20. [check ebay prices]..the FW model have lowered too on ebay.

I'm sorry, but I'm really having trouble seeing what the big deal is, here. Yes, GW screwed with your force org, no, you didn't get hit as hard as most people who played a niche 3-3.5 codex (GW had never done those before, there was no indication that they planned to stop)

I had a Lost and the Damned army that was around 3,000 points. This became around 1,500 points of CSM (with no support), 500ish points of daemons (or gimped CSM daemons), and 1,000 points of IG with stupid options that was probably illegal to play (never tried). Several years later, this got a fix, kind of, with some Apocalypse stuff. Currently, I still wouldn't legally be able to play the whole force unless I don't use daemons (which is okay, since I didn't use them much to begin with, and I sold the army off years ago) unless I did an apocalypse game.

I had an ulthwe strike force with a ton of specialized options and missing a lot of eldar staples. Again, mothballed. I could have bought entirely new HS and Elites (since the army didn't run them, really), but decided to sell it off.

Kroot players still can't legally play their army as anything but a weird proxy or Apocalypse armies.

What I'm trying to get at is, 3 dreadnoughts isn't really so bad. In fact, you could easily run them in a SM list as troops choices or as Death Co Dreads in a Blood Angels list as troops, or in a SM siege list as troops (though your group doesn't like FW...), and have tons of options. Or you could run them in a CSM list with Daemon Engines for heavy and Fast choices, and attempt to have a thematic list that overwhelms your opponents with walkers etc. The first three of those options don't involve any new minis, probably, and all of them could easily be done with proxies and a moderately substantial collection. Not that I support stealing (even from price gouging behemoths), but you could find, copy, or borrow codexes until you find one you like, so it wouldn't risk anything but some time.

-----on to another point:

It feels like, every time I get to the 40k section here, I find you complaining about GW's policies, Space Marines' power (still can't tell if you mean generic marines or all chapters combined), and CSM's lack thereof. As some helpful advice, I felt the same way about Privateer Press-- I thought their policies were bad, some of their armies were overpowered, and some could use help they weren't getting, and I ranted about it probably to an unhealthy degree. I stepped back from the PP tables and forums for a couple months, and now I'm much calmer about it. I still feel the same way, but don't rant and occasionally enjoy a game of WM, though not as much as when I believed in the company.

What I'm trying to say is, it might be worth taking a break from 40k for a bit.
True, we love life, not because we are used to living but because we are used to loving. There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.
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Re: thouhgt about new csm codex.

Post by kturock » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:31 pm

You don't understand.. I did take a break from 40k..I started in RT and played in 2nd ed. I played a few game sof 3rd ed... and didn't like it. so i stopped. I played 1 game of 4th, and stopped. and watched 5th ed. not palying at all.
I only got back in for 6th ed.. because it's back to guns being useful. shap shots, overwatch and the like.

what I'm having a problem with is all, well almost all, of the SM players, [except for the SW player] uses drop pod assault. it's a SM option. No one else can use it. Nids have DP, but not on turn 1, with no deviation. CSM can't even use them. It's not chapter approved so, even the FW nerfed modesl are not playable,. [ or a SM DP as it's proxie, UNLESS you get the other players approval]

Really, Chaos can't figure out how to make dp? can't create a deamon that can do it? [or creature like the nids did.]or steal them from someone else? The csm have 1 version of LR.. how many does SM have? 1 version of a preadtor, SM have how many?
Up until now, SM had a flyer that ruled everything.. the new helldrake, even though it doesn't have as many weapons or armor, can at least equal the eldar/DEldar in the air.
the last player to get a flyer on the board will rule the skies. if only 1 player does, it's his.
Heh, I was called a Grognard. ;-)
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Re: thouhgt about new csm codex.

Post by spiralingcadaver » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:47 pm

Have you looked at a quad cannon to go after whatever's juiciest? Evenly distribute your army so DPs don't have good landing spots?

I've never played a DP heavy list, but what are they packing that makes them so gross? When I played as chaos, I loved enemy marines getting close, 'cause it meant my plague marines would get to shoot and charge next turn, which usually meant they'd get stuck in until the enemy was dead or useless.
True, we love life, not because we are used to living but because we are used to loving. There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.
-Nietzsche

I expect honesty about models' conditions, thank you.

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Re: thouhgt about new csm codex.

Post by kturock » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:21 pm

dp's with command squad and/or termies, in my back line on turn 1. I've just seen that the quad is available to all.. so.. i'm looking into it.
but, can it shoot at them as they land?
Heh, I was called a Grognard. ;-)
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Re: thouhgt about new csm codex.

Post by spiralingcadaver » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:24 pm

Ah, darn, re-read interceptor, would be after they disembarked, so probably not as useful. Depending on what's coming your way, a defense shield could be really nice (4++ is useful, moreso the more guys you can fit without clogging), since its biggest weakness (doing nothing special against charges) isn't a problem, since they'll just be shooting you. Depending on how well you position it, the defense line might be able to force maneuvering, though it doesn't seem like a great option in that context.

If they're dropping marines and termies in your back lines, some things that seem immediately useful:
-flamers (in enough bulk, they'll cause a lot of hits and/or force your opponent to spread out) and the new super flamer CSM have
-plasmas wherever they'll fit (you'll already be in rapid fire range)
-avoiding relying on vehicles (drop podding meltas have a big advantage against them, while there's notably less against plain old infantry), though unfortunately that limits csm options a bit. The other option is oversaturation of vehicles, so they'll need to choose their targets and it's more likely some will survive.
True, we love life, not because we are used to living but because we are used to loving. There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.
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Re: thouhgt about new csm codex.

Post by nightlord » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:00 am

I see where Kturock is going with this. I am 44 years old and been playing since RT too. Sorry man but the Hellbrute is the new chaos dread. I have several forge world dreads in my possession for alpha legion and nightlords. I will be useing these as hellbrutes. You should go way back and dig up a picture of one of the first all metal chaos dreads. Looks more like something for the tyranids army then chaos. And yes GW has a bad habbit of causeing figures to become obsolete when a new codex comes out. Just about every CCG has had this happen too. That why I dont play magic anymore.
Example slannesh fiends faded away until the new deamon fantasy codex appeared. But on the flip side GW had rules for vehicle and weapons they had never modeled. We used to make the whirlwind from a rhino and large square bases. Or glue ten hunter killer missles square tubes together. I still have one of these built in my first original designed marine army to this day.(WHite Dragons!!!)

But I too do not understand GW logic to not haveing a drop pod or something equal for chaos. I mean imperial marines invade useing pods ,thunderhawks and such to invade planets, What does chaos use? Just about every piece of GW fluff about invadeing chaos marines include chaos useing pods and landing craft. The dreadclaw is used mainly for assaulting ship to ship. Who knows GW may release chaos and some other army drop pods/assault craft in a white dwarf like they did the marine and orc flyers. Im still aggrivated about not being able to field a marine flyer because the limited release of the rules. IM sure these rules are posted somewhere. But that was just F%^$&ed up on GW's part. They still had the magazine posted for sale on there web site even when they were completely sold out. Trust me I called to buy one when the local stores couldnt get em again.

I have read through out the new chaos codex little at a time. What I like so far is the point decrease for chaos bikers. I have a chaos biker army in the works I started back in 4th edition. These were in the 4th ed codex too ;a Chapter called the Steel Cobras. IM even working up a story line starting from the 40k soft back book Storm Of Iron.
Also the wargear list and the different weapons and vehicle upgrades. PLus the cheap wall of flesh called cultist. This falls under the alpha legion fluff. The new Warp talons are great for Nightlords. And if you ever read the novel Storm of Iron you will see the new Maulfiend and Forgefiend fall under Iron Warriors. The rules for the these new models and the defiler are awsome. Walking heavy weapon platforms with multible wounds that regenrate.Thats HUGE.

If you follow GW fluff and 40K history you will see how chaos is re-inventing themselves. The technology the marines possess comes from MARS, so chaos will only have older marine vehicles. And chaos has lost technology to build and maintain items like speeders.
Why it took chaos up to forth edition to recieve artillary in the form of a defiler is beyond me. Seeing artillary has been around since the chinese invented it during the dark ages. Artillary is one of the first uses of gun powder on the battle field.

Anyway im still upset chaos doesnt have the means to drop pod in. But it still has deapstrike termies . And unlike marine termis that cost 200pts for 5 termis ,chaos termis costs 157 for 5 termi's.,then for 20pts more givem mark of slannesh ,then for 15 more points give em veterans of long war. you are still under 200points and can wipe out a marine termi squad easily. and even if they are assault termis you get to go first in HTH useing power weapons.

Im sure I'll find some other nifty tid bits here and there. Like the Sword of Murder. AWSOME!!!.

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Re: thouhgt about new csm codex.

Post by kturock » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:13 am

I had those old dreads, csm and sm.. also the old robots and IG jet bikes and harlie jet bikes. all models that gw just eliminated.
My current CSM dreads are metal, so they'll strip easily.

3 aspiring champs casting the boon spell on a deamon prince.. that gives 3 rolls on the boon table.. the odds of getting no boon, or him not saving are small.

typhus and the zombie horde. too bad there's not a spell/psyker power to turn dead models, from either side, into them.

cultists with a couple pieces of gear and some good rolls are almost = to SM.. true no 3+ save but.. for 4-5 points each.. wth.

Lucius casuing the DEldar LiLLith to run like a little girl..
Heh, I was called a Grognard. ;-)
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