Guard questions

[EVIL INC]

I will likely add to this and feel free to ask/answer any of your own.
Finally got me the Alreham (or however its spelled and no demonllama didnt finally send it, I bought it at a local shop) model and I was wondering why they have him listed in the GW site in the hq section but not chenkov. They have his model listed in the collecters section and not even listed as being him.
Why do you think this is?
Has anyone ever used him? how did he do? How do conscripts do?
For that matter, has anyone ever used al reham? How did he do?Another guard question.
How come you only see chimeras, russes and a rare valkrie/vendetta or hellhound.
How come no one ever takes the long range bassys or missiles?
I never use them because I dont have the models, never got the models because I wanna see them in action first.
Who has ever used them and how did they do?

[don_mondo]

I will likely add to this and feel free to ask/answer any of your own.
Finally got me the Alreham (or however its spelled and no demonllama didnt finally send it, I bought it at a local shop) model and I was wondering why they have him listed in the GW site in the hq section but not chenkov. They have his model listed in the collecters section and not even listed as being him.
Why do you think this is?
Has anyone ever used him? how did he do? How do conscripts do?
For that matter, has anyone ever used al reham? How did he do?Another guard question.
How come you only see chimeras, russes and a rare valkrie/vendetta or hellhound.
How come no one ever takes the long range bassys or missiles?
I never use them because I dont have the models, never got the models because I wanna see them in action first.
Who has ever used them and how did they do?

Chenkov. Never used him, never seen him used. Never seen Conscripts on the table either.

Al Rahem. I've seen him used and he seems todo ok. Not for me, I like more control over my deployment options and his entire platoon MUST Outflank. Most that use him also use the Astropath to boost their Reserves roll. There's also the debate over how they come in, all on one side or roll for wach unit individually to determine where they come in. While the Platoon rule says that the entire Platoon arrives from Reserves ona single roll, neither the Platoon rule or Rahem's rule covers how to handle the actual Outflank. IMO, straight RAW is that you role for each unit individually to determine entry side.
Tanks. Well, I'm a long time fan of the bassie, but I seldom field it any more. Just too many options that do the job better. Need Barrage on Infantry, take the Colossus. Just want to throw large blasts around, take standard Leman Russ MBTs. Boils down to firepower and surviveability. The Bassie and Leman Russ have equivelant firepower (ST 9 vs ST and are both the same AP value. The Bassie does have the ability to fire Barrage where the LR MBT requires LOS to Direct Fire. But with true LOS, that's usually not a problem. And the LR MBT is far more surviveable than the Bassie, AV 14/13 vs AV 12/10 opentopped. And with that same true LOS generall letting me see them, they can usually see the Bassie and it will die once they give it any attention.
Chimeras and valk/vendettas cover the transportation/mobility and an occasional Hellhound for horde non-MEQ armies.
Missiles, I assume you mean the Deathstrike. Well, when you can't shoot it on turn one, and have to roll each turn to see if you can shoot it, and when it's probably not going to survive long enough to shoot anyways, why bother.

[EVIL INC]

I just dont like the idea of conscripts. I think mobbing up multiple reguler squads seems like a better option. Thats because they have better stats as well as the ability to take a "built in" commissar to keep them firm while the conscripts have much weaker stats and to give them a commissar, you gotta give them an hq one or maybe get them a priest. The conscripts just dont seem as viable an option to me.
I like the idea of alrehem. I am debating on making an all outflank/deepstrike guard army based on him and putting hq and vets in vendettas. Maybe even Creed in a veb=ndetta so I can have a unit of russes outflank as well.Putting rahem and squads in chimeras and maybe even a couple missile launch squads to pop missiles into rear armor
I had actually meant the manticore with missiles tanks.I got some missile pods from a different company and I am debating on converting them to be interchangable with a regular chimera turret. d3 strength 10 barrages a turn (for 4 turns anyways) sounds good for taking out tanks (even raiders and other russes. had not thought about how tlos would affect bassies and all. I love the looks of them but now see why I see them so rarely.

[Ironhide]

Well, the conscripts do respawn if I remember correctly.

[Gaijin18]

Conscripts are good for one thing,,,,,

Meat shield,sure their stats are low but they can force an opponent to roll lots of dice,,,,and take shots away from units you want to keep around longer.

[EVIL INC]

The conscripts only respawn if you buy them in conjunction with Chenkov and and then you have to pay an additional 75 points for the ability on top of that. Also, any models attached to the unit are destroyed when you do this as well. So if you have a commissar lord attached, he is destroyed when you do this.
Your right about the meatshield though. They can be good at that but looking at the math, I think reguler guys can be more effective at only slightly more points...
1. they have better stats. They can kill more enemy with shooting, they have higher ws so they can kill more enemy in close combat. they have a higher leadership so they stand thier ground longer and can hold the enemy up for longer in close combat.
2. the sergeants can buy extra equipment (I personally do not do this usually and especially not if I get a commissar). so they can be more effective in close combat/shooting with the addition of plasma pistols and power weapons.
3. they can take special and heavy weapons to give them more firepower
4. they can take commissars which not only can add a bit of a punch with plasma pistols, power weapons but also make the unit stubborn and allow rerolls on leadership (this is why I dont give the sarges equipment, or if I do, I dont give it to them all so I have expendable sarges just for self removal).
5. Each time you resend in the conscripts, the enemy gains another kill point.

I can see how the resending in could be usefull for snagging an objective in your own deployment zone on the last turn of the game though. I would rather sit a HW squad on it during the game and pop shots off the whole game and claim it that way.

[Norseman]

You attach a commissar lord to a small unit behind the 50 man meat squad. To make them stubborn. Do not attach him to the unit. You use the conscripts to tie up elite HtH squads. TH/SS Termies, Nob Bikers, DE Lord, Seer Council. Who cars if you lose 30 of them. That's only 60 points. Then when it is your turn kill them all yourself and the SHOOT the hell out of the unit with the rest of your army. The BIG thing isn't that you get them all back, the big thing is that you can kill all your own units and free up that elite squad for shooting. Chenkov plus the Next wave rule is AMAZING. Plus the 50 guys are bound to kill something in HtH or even shooting.

As for the Chimera based Artillery. i use it all the time. You just have to keep it safe in your backfield usually in the center to avoid flankers. Throw down a 3 Basilisks a Manticore should be an auto include in EVERY guard army, and an often overlooked Griffon. The Griffon basically hits EVERY time with its re-roll It is great for killing massed infantry. With the prevalence of mech on the table the Hydra is great for popping transports and slowing down your opponent.

They do take up a lot of room back there and paint a HUGE target on your side of the table. But then again you also know exactly where your opponent will be going and plan for it. Create kill boxes, counter charges, and flamer traps. You can also surround your tanks with those cheap conscript squads and completely flood your deployment zone area surrounding your artillery so they can NOT be assaulted and will receive a cover save from shooting from those pesky close meltas.

Whatever it is Guard does have an answer you just have to realize sometimes it has a cost in dead bodies. Remember to look at it like the Imperial commanders... The IG is a tool. Sometimes you have to complete destroy a tool to complete a job. As long as the job gets done, we are happy.

[EVIL INC]

I still feel that a mobbed up group of regular guardsmen would be more effective and be cheaper pointwise to boot (since you need to buy chenkov and the ability as well. Together, thats 125 points just for the ability before you even buy the conscripts). I understand your point about destroying the unit yourself to leave an enemy exposed to fire on your turn. That just smacks of one trick pony to me and one that is easily avoided as they will see it coming a mile away (although I am sure that there are some dupes who might fall for it.
On the tanks, thinking the russes are still the better option although, I am considering a manticore for anti tank duty.

[Norseman]

The thing is the opponent CAN'T avoid it. If he wants to assault you he has got to hit the conscripts first. It insures that you are NOT assaulted where you do not want to be, without at least 1 round of shooting available to counter.

Sometimes the threat of this is enough for a general to not attempt it. This allows you to capture board control.

There are other tricks that can be employed with the conscripts.
Charge in with the conscripts against multiple enemy squads. Tie them all up. take HEAVY casualties - maintain stubborn with Commisar lord close behind but not in combat. Enemy must move in at end of combat to engage as many models as possible i believe it is 6-8". Stacking up units closely. Again kill them all on your turn and template the hell out of them.

Stack up many conscripts in front of your tanks very closely. base to base 2 deep to give your tanks a cover save. Turret is above does not give opponent a cover save.

You get second turn. Place conscripts in a line in front of your army. Your entire army (if infantry) gets a 4+ cover save from other army. On your turn kill them and take your turn free of a cover save on enemy.

[EVIL INC]

With jump troops and skimmers, almost all armies are able to bypass the conscript meatshield and get directly into close combat with the units hiding behind them. Of course, in cases where the opponent is not able to do that, all they need to do is spread his forces out to prevent you from assaulting multiple units and with shooting only a few shots into them, they can remove their ability to spread very far by forcing you to move them to maintain 2" coherency.
Both prevent you from using them to get board control without them easily contesting the quarters or objectives.
With the tanks, you cant have it both ways, if they provide a cover save for the tank, then they provide a cover save for the units the tank is shooting at. The placement of the turret does not count into that according to the rules. However, they CAN do this to prevent an opponent from assaulting the tank.
In all cases, it still remains that regular troops would be far more effective in terms of points spent, damage given out/taken, versatility and so forth.
This is why I asked about the conscripts to begin with, they appear to be a waste of points except to spend a few leftover points and even then, the points would likely be better spent somewhere else. Of course, if you are going for a fluff based army, they would fit in VERY well in many occasions.
Like your idea of bassies though. Using the denied flank tactic or opposit table quarters scenarios would let these types of tanks really shine.
Does anyone else play guard or have experiences/opinions on the different guard units?

[Ironhide]

The conscripts are used to bog down your opponents strongest hand-to-hand unit. Just charge them into those units and bog them down. This frees up the rest of your units to focus on killing the others.

Vets are good. Can be made to suit several different purposes.

Penal troops can also be good if the right abilities are rolled.

But the real power of the imperial guard is the troop numbers and tanks. Everything else it just decoration.

[EVIL INC]

I like vets. I use them a fair bit. The ability to take 3 special weapons is great. Give them demo and they can have 3 special weapons and a demo charge (they can also take a heavy but that kills thier mobility although the addition of Harker gives them a mobile heavy bolter. Add in BS 4 with those weapons and you have a great unit.
Gotta agree on penal legion but so far for me, they have been hit or miss. I use them once in a while for the coolness factor of me having them all painted in bright orange jumpsuits.

[EVIL INC]

Played in a tourney over the weekend. Used Al Rehem and took only chimera troop units in them with flamers and a couple of them with commissars with power weapons and plasma pistols. They actually did very well, even against marines. I had not taken any special weapons units because they woulda come in on foot and in each game I played I found that they could have help me do much better, not that I did bad at 2nd place.

[Gaijin18]

Dont forget rough riders,,,I use 3 units of them,,,course I run a themed army,but even so,,,60 pw attacks in something most players aren't ready for.

[EVIL INC]

I have a unit of 5 of them. 2 with magnatized arms to opt out for flamers or melta guns or lances. They did VERY well in one game by charging a unit of termies and wiping them out and in another game they got assaulted by dark eldar and wiped out to a man.
I converted mine out of chaos marauders (yes, I got all the icons covered up, I just wanted feral looking RR). Very fluffy models and unit. I soon hope to get another 5 to make it a full 10 man squad.